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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 11:47:11 GMT -5
I think a leopard can kill a silverback gorilla.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 14, 2018 11:50:48 GMT -5
I think a leopard can kill a silverback gorilla. Maybe from the back, by ambush, but i dont think face to face.
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Post by brobear on Sept 14, 2018 13:22:28 GMT -5
What the leopard can do and what he does may possibly be two different things. There is simply numerous less risky prey animals in the African Congo. Remember too that the bull gorilla is roughly four-times the weight of a leopard - smaller than a cougar. A cougar will not ambush a full-grown black bear boar.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 13:27:53 GMT -5
I think a leopard can kill a silverback gorilla. Maybe from the back, by ambush, but i dont think face to face. I agree You may be right.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 13:28:35 GMT -5
What the leopard can do and what he does may possibly be two different things. There is simply numerous less risky prey animals in the African Congo. Remember too that the bull gorilla is roughly four-times the weight of a leopard - smaller than a cougar. A cougar will not ambush a full-grown black bear boar. I think you're right. A black boar bear is too much for a cougar to handle.
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Post by brobear on Sept 14, 2018 15:13:29 GMT -5
There was fairly recently ( within the last several years ) strong evidence was found and it was reported that a leopard had killed an adult male gorilla. Well, a handful of the big cat fanboys were rejoicing as this further heightened their admiration for the big cats. I'm not sneering at them for this though. It would be like as if an Asiatic black bear were to fight and kill a huge Russian wild boar. I would be delighted to share this in my admiration for the bear. Well, that adult gorilla was a sub-adult; perhaps sexually mature but still a black-back. Comparatively a teenager. There have been no reports ( to my knowledge ) of a leopard ever killing a silver-back gorilla.
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Post by Polar on Sept 15, 2018 13:55:06 GMT -5
Carnivores, in general, are simply much more adapted to fighting lethally.
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Post by Polar on Sept 15, 2018 13:58:35 GMT -5
I also think a leopard can still kill a silverback gorilla face-to-face, although around there, the odds will be 70% leopard win/30% gorilla loss with a 2.5-3x weight advantage to the gorilla.
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Post by brobear on Sept 15, 2018 16:30:22 GMT -5
I also think a leopard can still kill a silverback gorilla face-to-face, although around there, the odds will be 70% leopard win/30% gorilla loss with a 2.5-3x weight advantage to the gorilla. I disagree. Even though the strength of a bull gorilla has never been measured, it is a known fact that he is incredibly strong. I watched a documentary where a man had a difficult time breaking a stick of green bamboo that was hardly bigger than a man's finger in diameter. The gorilla easily broke one into the size of a man's arm. Another documentary shows a big silverback reach up over his head and pull himself onto a tree branch ( one-handed pull-up ). If a 100 to 125 pound leopard were to face-off with a gorilla, he would be met by a great ape perhaps anywhere from 350 pounds to 450 pounds with massive upper-body strength and a superior bite armed with bigger teeth. The gorilla isn't going to just stand still and be killed. I'm sure that in their play-fighting ( wrestling ) from the time they're young juveniles, a gorilla has some idea of how to defend himself. My money is on the gorilla. Besides; if even a bull gorilla were an easy kill, then gorilla's would be on the top of the leopard's grocery list in the Congo. More meat on a gorilla than on a monkey. Oh! Another little tid-bit. On a Documentary about leopards ( about four years ago I believe ), it was said that of all the animals of the African Congo, the leopard only fears the chimpanzee.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 15, 2018 17:30:14 GMT -5
I agree here with Brobear 100 %. On a face to face Battle i bet on the silverback. One hit from those arms and its over for the leopard, broken back or broken something.
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Post by Polar on Sept 21, 2018 14:08:52 GMT -5
I also think a leopard can still kill a silverback gorilla face-to-face, although around there, the odds will be 70% leopard win/30% gorilla loss with a 2.5-3x weight advantage to the gorilla. I disagree. Even though the strength of a bull gorilla has never been measured, it is a known fact that he is incredibly strong. I watched a documentary where a man had a difficult time breaking a stick of green bamboo that was hardly bigger than a man's finger in diameter. The gorilla easily broke one into the size of a man's arm. Another documentary shows a big silverback reach up over his head and pull himself onto a tree branch ( one-handed pull-up ). If a 100 to 125 pound leopard were to face-off with a gorilla, he would be met by a great ape perhaps anywhere from 350 pounds to 450 pounds with massive upper-body strength and a superior bite armed with bigger teeth. The gorilla isn't going to just stand still and be killed. I'm sure that in their play-fighting ( wrestling ) from the time they're young juveniles, a gorilla has some idea of how to defend himself. My money is on the gorilla. Besides; if even a bull gorilla were an easy kill, then gorilla's would be on the top of the leopard's grocery list in the Congo. More meat on a gorilla than on a monkey. Oh! Another little tid-bit. On a Documentary about leopards ( about four years ago I believe ), it was said that of all the animals of the African Congo, the leopard only fears the chimpanzee. Felines, much like other carnivores, have excessive pound-for-pound strength for their bodies, so much that that strength is literally incomprehensible for us humans, let alone other giant primates. Lone leopard males have literally killed full-grown elands (and some videos show them dragging the 1000-1200 pound beast down). There aren't really many muscle or bone estimates done on leopards in general, but the carnivore family (with lion and black bear muscle compositions) have much more neurons per unit of muscle when compared to the human, lemur, and howler monkey. The problem is that we don't know much big this muscle factor is, but from my untrained eye and from the videos I've seen, the factor difference seems pretty huge! Carnivores have that "killer's mentality" as well where they want to rid their opponent in the most effective way, so the leopard might have a slight intellectual advantage in fighting here. Only slightly because this leopard has never fought a gorilla before, but still a tiny advantage. Aside from this, bipedal animals have a rotational advantage of being able to swing from a greater angle and this could harm the leopard, but that is a big COULD. This mostly applies to animals that can become Leopards are incredibly agile like other carnivores and could dodge the gorilla's swings and pulling motions. Gorilla obviously has advantage in weight and swinging from a bipedal position, but I see the leopard outscratching (primates have easily-tearable skins), out-dodging, and at some point either weakening the gorilla by blood loss or immediately sinking its jaws in the ape's carotid artery (which comes with more risk). Strength factors, maybe the gorilla's muscle bulk can exceed or at least offset the leopard's muscular advantage. I'd still give the 130 to 150-pound leopard 7/10 over the 350-400 pound silverback gorilla. With everyth
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 15:08:45 GMT -5
I disagree. Even though the strength of a bull gorilla has never been measured, it is a known fact that he is incredibly strong. I watched a documentary where a man had a difficult time breaking a stick of green bamboo that was hardly bigger than a man's finger in diameter. The gorilla easily broke one into the size of a man's arm. Another documentary shows a big silverback reach up over his head and pull himself onto a tree branch ( one-handed pull-up ). If a 100 to 125 pound leopard were to face-off with a gorilla, he would be met by a great ape perhaps anywhere from 350 pounds to 450 pounds with massive upper-body strength and a superior bite armed with bigger teeth. The gorilla isn't going to just stand still and be killed. I'm sure that in their play-fighting ( wrestling ) from the time they're young juveniles, a gorilla has some idea of how to defend himself. My money is on the gorilla. Besides; if even a bull gorilla were an easy kill, then gorilla's would be on the top of the leopard's grocery list in the Congo. More meat on a gorilla than on a monkey. Oh! Another little tid-bit. On a Documentary about leopards ( about four years ago I believe ), it was said that of all the animals of the African Congo, the leopard only fears the chimpanzee. Felines, much like other carnivores, have excessive pound-for-pound strength for their bodies, so much that that strength is literally incomprehensible for us humans, let alone other giant primates. Lone leopard males have literally killed full-grown elands (and some videos show them dragging the 1000-1200 pound beast down). There aren't really many muscle or bone estimates done on leopards in general, but the carnivore family (with lion and black bear muscle compositions) have much more neurons per unit of muscle when compared to the human, lemur, and howler monkey. The problem is that we don't know much big this muscle factor is, but from my untrained eye and from the videos I've seen, the factor difference seems pretty huge! Carnivores have that "killer's mentality" as well where they want to rid their opponent in the most effective way, so the leopard might have a slight intellectual advantage in fighting here. Only slightly because this leopard has never fought a gorilla before, but still a tiny advantage. Aside from this, bipedal animals have a rotational advantage of being able to swing from a greater angle and this could harm the leopard, but that is a big COULD. This mostly applies to animals that can become Leopards are incredibly agile like other carnivores and could dodge the gorilla's swings and pulling motions. Gorilla obviously has advantage in weight and swinging from a bipedal position, but I see the leopard outscratching (primates have easily-tearable skins), out-dodging, and at some point either weakening the gorilla by blood loss or immediately sinking its jaws in the ape's carotid artery (which comes with more risk). Strength factors, maybe the gorilla's muscle bulk can exceed or at least offset the leopard's muscular advantage. I'd still give the 130 to 150-pound leopard 7/10 over the 350-400 pound silverback gorilla. With everyth Same with me. Im more on the side of the leopard.
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2018 5:27:24 GMT -5
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 22, 2018 6:00:02 GMT -5
Yes sir, finally we agree. face to face, black bear or gorilla beats leopard at least 6/10 times.
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Post by brobear on Oct 7, 2018 3:42:34 GMT -5
Over the years, in reading the occasional gorilla fight debates, I find that nearly every poster is leaning towards one extreme or the other. On one side are those who view the bull gorilla as "the B-movie monster" who bends steel bars in his bare hands. Afraid of no beast. On the other extreme, we see those posters who see a big vegetarian ape who is somehow lucky to be living at all, being so helpless against predators. I stand in the middle. Why do leopards not prey upon full-grown bull gorillas? Because over the past million years or so, the Prince of the Jungle has learned that a bull gorilla is no joke.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 7, 2018 5:02:22 GMT -5
Feline fans think that tigers regularly hunt and kill full grown asian elephants (9000 lbs). i dont see why they would not think a leopard would not hunt and kill a Silverback gorilla. (Lmao)
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 7, 2018 9:32:34 GMT -5
Definatly, the silverback gorilla is a truck, just look at this charge, look at those arms. A leopard does not stand a chance in a face to face battle without ambush.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 19, 2018 15:06:32 GMT -5
Boys....when it comes to gorilla vs leopard, looks like Peter is not on our side. Post 228 wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-great-apesWHY LEOPARDS ARE ABLE TO KILL GORILLAS It seems that some posters are unwilling to accept that an adult male leopard is both willing and able to kill a primate at least two times his size. The infomation posted by Shadow, collected by people in the know, is however plenty convincing: there's no question whatsoever that leopards have attacked, killed and consumed gorillas, including adult males. But what about the great strength of adult male gorillas? Should be telling in conflict, no? Nobody is doubting the strength of gorillas, but other animals hunted and killed by leopards also are impressive in every way. We just didn't see it. One of the first things one needs to understand is leopards are big cats with a lot of experience in the department of primates. They have hunted them many thousands of years ago and they still hunt them today. Something else that needs to be considered is aggression. All big cats are born hunters with many thousands of years of experience. Only the most able bred. All wild adults have the psychological ability to attack and kill large and dangerous animals. When they see a real fight just in front of them, people often are unable to understand what is happening. The fury often is just too much for many. I've seen grown people run away from an enraged captive tiger, bars or no bars. Leopards are no different in this respect. Some of the trainers I interviewed consider adult leopards as outright psychopaths. What they were really saying is they, after many years, were still unable to understand the aggression they saw. Not of this world. And it isn't. One of the most able in this department was a captive female I saw in Switserland many years ago. She also was the smallest adult female I ever saw. I think she was about 50 pounds. Most dogs are heavier, that is. The day we visited the trainer with his animals on a market somewhere in a small town, she wasn't having her best day. The males interested in a chat were chased out of the cage in a way I never seen before. The only one she accepted was the trainer, a very big young man. He too, however, knew what she was capable of, as he had been wounded many times. In his opinion, she was able to kill him in seconds if she wanted to. After the demonstration I saw, I readily agreed. Aggression in overdrive, it was. If we add the speed, agility, strength and weapons of leopards, it's easy to understand why a 120-pound wild male leopard is able to destroy a big male gorilla two or three times his weight. Leopards, like all other wild big cats, do subspecies. In most part of central-western Africa, they're quite large. The most muscular skulls I saw belonged to male leopards shot in that part of Africa. I've seen longer, more elevated and wider skulls, but quite a few skulls from leopards shot in that part of Africa were heavy and well-developed, especially in the teeth department. The most impressive mandibulas and canines I saw. Here's an example of what I mean. The picture was taken by poster Wanderfalke in the Staatliches Museum fur Naturkunde Stuttgart in 2012. The skull right belonged to a wild male jaguar. It was one of the the longest and most elevated I saw. The skull left belonged to a male leopard from western Africa. Although smaller in all departments, it was, even without the canines, a mighty impressive skull: In another life, when out on your own, never ever underestimate a leopard. Lions and tigers evolved to deal with large mammals. Leopards evolved to deal with creatures like us and then some. Most unfortunately, they're very good at it. And the gorilla? Powerful beyond understanding and definitely capable of destroying even the largest leopard. But a predator is very different from a primate. Post 228
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Post by brobear on Oct 20, 2018 12:36:57 GMT -5
Brobear: I understand that leopards are predators while gorillas are vegetarian and normally quiet and peaceful. I understand also that among the big cats of Asia and Africa, it is the leopard that more heavily preys on primates. But, for a leopard, a silverback gorilla should be easy to catch and easy to ambush. There is a lot of meat on a bull gorilla. Since there are not a large number of adult male gorilla remains found from leopard predation, I would assume that a leopard considers him to be risky prey. I will add, a bull gorilla's response to an intruder is a buff charge. Not to scurry up a tree. The leopard is the only natural predator that a gorilla has, therefore the bluff charge is probably an adaptation primarily directed to the leopard. I have no idea what lived in the Congo during the Pleistocene
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Post by brobear on Oct 20, 2018 12:37:59 GMT -5
Shadow: As far as I have looked about these animals, my own conclusion is, that when leopard hunt gorillas, it of course looks for the easiest target there, so it is naturally a young one. I think, that we have to remember to separate two things when we are talking about animals. One is, that what they do normally and most probably. Second is, that what they are capable to do when situation for some reason demands it. Then again remembering that, that when animal is doing something, what it is capable to do, are there risks?
I mean this, tiger is capable to attack a bear, also adult ones. Even male brown bear if it have to. Then again even though it is capable to do it, also to kill it, is it without risk? Absolutely not. That is why when we look for instance Amur tiger and brown bears, wast majority of killed bears are either females or young males/cubs, not adult males. Attacking adult male, tiger in a way "dives in deep water" and no idea if able to surface again. Same thing when we are looking at cases where bears have killed tigers. So yes, they are without a doubt capable to do something, still they donĀ“t do that. So it is not probable and not normal thing to happen. Same thing for instance with lion and cape buffalo. A single male lion has proved, that it can kill even alone a buffalo. But then again is it normal thing to happen and something what people going to safari could wait to see as a probable thing.... not even close to that.
These animals are not there to prove anything to us, they are there to get food. Multiple reasons can affect to their behaviour in different situations. Male gorilla is a formidable creature to hunt for a leopard, it is so big, that it brings some natural respect from predator. From these cases what have been found, only case where it is proven, that attack was.... should I say "full frontal" was that case in the zoo. But that is unnatural place for a wild animal, so in that way it has no value (for me) in any other way, but proving what enraged panther/leopard is capable to do. In wilderness it is hard to imagine, that leopard would just walk there, revealing where it is, before making attack. Even if "specialized" individual to kill apes. Big cats everywhere make attacks after sneaking close to prey and revealing themselves only when actual attack happens, giving to prey only a split second time to react.
This latest case with silverback, what I found, was told to be most probably attack at night to nest. I have read same kind of observations from Baumgartel, in cases, where male gorillas were killed. It looks like leopards have quite good skills and understanding how to kill a gorilla with minimal risk. At least some individuals seem to have that kind of skills. Like some lion prides kill more certain kind of prey than others. If looking closer and trying to find cases in which leopard would have made an attack to a gorilla at time, when they are awake, the number seems to be significantly smaller compared to night time hunting. Night time gives to leopard also benefit what comes to sense of sight. When combining that "night vision" to agility of a leopard, it is no wonder, that it is able to sneak close to gorillas so, that they have no clue what happens before too late. Suddenly there is screaming and roaring and before gorillas have time to take defence formation, it is already all over for one of them. Leopard gone in all that chaos. For me that makes sense. A leopard going for specifically the biggest possible male gorilla, without some surprise element, just is not the way they do it. So has it ever happened, I think that some lone silverback has payed the price to be overconfident or sloppy. Same could have happened to some leopard in such case.
A lot of speculation there from me, but I have tried to do that based on known facts. For me those facts have formed a picture of hunting in darkness. Day time happens, but it is way more difficult for a leopard. What comes to adult male gorillas killed. It looks like many have been killed, but most of them with a very limited possibility for a "fair fight" if we look it from point of view like it would be sports. I think, that leopard keeps that kind of action "fair enough" because it is there to eat, not to prove us something.
Maybe that happens mostly when there is less some other more normal prey for a leopard? I have no idea if anyone have researched about this. I think, that for instance Schaller had observations, that many times leopards just passed gorillas with no interest and long periods of times with no gorillas predated by leopards.
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