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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 29, 2021 6:44:18 GMT -5
nocapakabl Why you insist to prove leopards predate on silverbacks? Seems to me you are a leopard fan bro, lmao. You barely have nothing there. "Gorilla remains found on leopard scat", i already told you, that just means the leopard eat a gorilla, does not mean it killed it, and it just says gorilla, not silverbacks. You also have 2 leopards stalking gorillas at their night nest. You also have "leopard attacked silverback and blackback" no description of a fight, most likely by ambush. "Blackback death, predation suspected", thats ambush. "Gorilla moves whole group" yes of course, to save his troop from a leopard.
Conclusion, you still have no face to face fights, nothing at all. A leopard is nothing buddy.
You need to try to "interpret" the accounts you read a little better, alot of times, accounts are not what they seem they are. If you really think a leopard just walks up to the face of a silverback or even a blackback, then you better think twice.
You need to try to see the nature of the animals:
As a rule, leopards are cowards:
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Post by nocapakabl on Jan 29, 2021 7:35:35 GMT -5
nocapakabl Why you insist to prove leopards predate on silverbacks? Seems to me you are a leopard fan bro, lmao. You barely have nothing there. "Gorilla remains found on leopard scat", i already told you, that just means the leopard eat a gorilla, does not mean it killed it, and it just says gorilla, not silverbacks. You also have 2 leopards stalking gorillas at their night nest. You also have "leopard attacked silverback and blackback" no description of a fight, most likely by ambush. "Blackback death, predation suspected", thats ambush. "Gorilla moves whole group" yes of course, to save his troop from a leopard.
Conclusion, you still have no face to face fights, nothing at all. A leopard is nothing buddy.
You need to try to "interpret" the accounts you read a little better, alot of times, accounts are not what they seem they are. If you really think a leopard just walks up to the face of a silverback or even a blackback, then you better think twice.
You need to try to see the nature of the animals:
As a rule, leopards are cowards
i Prefer leopards over gorillas, but i wouldn't call myself a leopard fanatic. Of course those accounts are probably ambush, that's how Leopards hunt. Well, Yes. Gorilla remains being found in leopard scats isn't 100% proof that the leopard killed it, it's Highly likely it did, though. we don't have any description on what happened after the leopard attacked the silverback and blackback, but it proof that Leopards do at times attack healthy grown gorillas, right? about the face to face fight thing, according to Zergthe (You might know him from carnivora) the accounts we have of Leopards and silverback's fighting face to face, ended as a draw. Overall, i'd favor the silverback 7/10.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 29, 2021 7:50:31 GMT -5
Hey, that's your preference.
About the scat method, they are just analyzing what the animal eat, its not the most reliable method to prove predation. To prove predation is to analyze the carcass. For example, in bears and tigers in the RFE, the predation percentage of both brown and black bears combined, in one perdiod, was around 8% when the prey (carcasses) were analyzed, but then, in the same period, it went up to 32% when the scat was analyzed. That is not reliable, those are 2 different methods
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Post by brobear on Jan 29, 2021 7:58:32 GMT -5
Quote: Why you insist to prove leopards predate on silverbacks? Seems to me you are a leopard fan bro... *This is not wrong. The best way to prove that leopards do not prey upon silverback gorillas is to attempt to prove that thy do. Just as we have searched for any reliable record of a tiger killing a full-grown male brown bear. *Reply #99 - good find.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 29, 2021 8:02:31 GMT -5
There are barely any real, fair, face to face fights. But maybe he did not see this one here:
FULL GROWN GORILLAS HAVE NO ENEMIES EXCEPT FOR HUMAN HUNTERS. AN ADULT GORILLA ATTACKED A LEOPARD THAT HAD BEEN THREATENING YOUNG GORILLAS. THE TWO ANIMALS BATTLED HAND-TO-CLAW AT NIGHT, AND IN THE MORNING THE LEOPARD WAS FOUND DEAD.
archive.org/details/animalsuperstars00free/page/48/mode/2up
Thats good to know, 7/8 out of 10 for me.
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Post by brobear on Jan 29, 2021 8:17:36 GMT -5
Quote: All the accounts of leopards and silverbacks fighting ended in a draw. *I feel sure that most of them do. A draw between a leopard and a gorilla can have only one meaning; the leopard retreats. When a leopard decides that this fight is one that could end his life, he can ( in most cases ) escape from the ape and retreat. However, it would be impossible for the gorilla to escape from a big cat if the cat is determined to have gorilla for dinner.
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Post by nocapakabl on Jan 29, 2021 8:19:38 GMT -5
Quote: All the accounts of leopards and silverbacks fighting ended in a draw. *I feel sure that most of them do. A draw between a leopard and a gorilla can have only one meaning; the leopard retreats. When a leopard decides that this fight is one that could end his life, he can ( in most cases ) escape from the ape and retreat. However, it would be impossible for the gorilla to escape from a big cat if the cat is determined to have gorilla for dinner. by the 'draw' i meant both died fighting.
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Post by brobear on Jan 29, 2021 8:27:28 GMT -5
Quote: All the accounts of leopards and silverbacks fighting ended in a draw. *I feel sure that most of them do. A draw between a leopard and a gorilla can have only one meaning; the leopard retreats. When a leopard decides that this fight is one that could end his life, he can ( in most cases ) escape from the ape and retreat. However, it would be impossible for the gorilla to escape from a big cat if the cat is determined to have gorilla for dinner. by the 'draw' i meant both died fighting. Oh, OK. I call that a no-win.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 29, 2021 9:25:29 GMT -5
by the 'draw' i meant both died fighting. Oh, OK. I call that a no-win. If both animals die in a fight, remember that the Silverback was most likely already injured by the initial ambush and still killed the leopard. A silverback-leopard fight doesn't just start with both looking each other in the eye, the leopard had to have an advantage to start with.
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Post by brobear on Feb 1, 2021 4:23:53 GMT -5
OK; we have it clearly narrowed down to three categories of killings which take place among the wild beasts of the natural world: category 1- Face-Off - like two boxers who step into the ring and look each other in the eye. category 2- Ambush - like a Ninja who appears unexpectedly out of the darkness and attacks his victim without warning.( not a face-off ). category 3- Chase and Catch - like a wolf who chases the caribou. The caribou knows he is there. The wolf attacks from behind.( neither a face-off nor an ambush ). *Only categories #2 and #3 are hunting techniques. The predator either attacks from a hiding place or he runs down his prey in a long-distance run. Prime example of a pure ambush predator - cougar. Prime example of a kill by chase predator - wolf. Category #1 is when the prey decides to stand his ground and fight. Then the predator is given the choice of accept the challenge or hunt elsewhere. From the topic: "Ambush vs Face-Off" in our "Bear Predation and Face-Off Topics" section. How an ambush generally works: First there is the stalking. Stealth. The leopard, as quiet as a ghost, sneaks up close to his prey. The ambush begins with the leopard gathering himself into position for the launch. Then he launches himself at high-speed ( perhaps 50 or 60 mph ) in the short distance between himself and his prey. Once the leopard makes physical contact with his victim, the ambush is complete. This is a successful ambush. In most cases, once a prey animal has been ambushed, the big cat administers his instinctive killing technique ( used for tens of millions of years ) to effectively kill his victim. But in rare cases, the victim is able to fight off the big cat even after being ambushed. If a bull gorilla is able to disengage a leopard from his back and to give the big cat a fight; no matter the outcome, once an ambush has been implemented, it remains an ambush attack.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Feb 1, 2021 7:09:08 GMT -5
Ambushing a larger and stronger animal with great grappling skills is still dangerous.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 9, 2021 2:01:13 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Feb 9, 2021 2:19:05 GMT -5
Not a surprise, the gorilla is much bigger and stronger.
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Post by brobear on Feb 12, 2021 4:54:03 GMT -5
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32623603/ Suspected Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi) predation attempts on two reintroduced Bornean orangutans (Pongo pygmaeus wurmbii) in Bukit Batikap Protection Forest, Central Kalimantan, Indonesia In February 2017 and August 2018, respectively, two Bornean orangutans (Pongo pygmaeus wurmbii) reintroduced into the Bukit Batikap Protection Forest in Central Kalimantan were found in weakened physical condition and with deep puncture wounds. The first individual was a sub-adult male, and the second an adult female whose 6- to 8-week-old infant was missing. Both individuals were rescued and transported back to the field base camp for treatment. Experienced veterinarians treating the injuries reported that the type of wounds appeared consistent with those expected from an attack by a large felid. The Sunda clouded leopard (Neofelis diardi) is the largest felid known to inhabit Bukit Batikap Protection Forest, and we suspect that these cases were unsuccessful predatory attacks by this species. Given the severity of his condition when found, the male orangutan would probably have died without medical intervention; however, both orangutans fully recovered following intensive treatment and were successfully returned to the forest. Predation attempts on orangutans are infrequently reported, thus our observations add to the body of knowledge about possible predation by clouded leopards on reintroduced, rehabilitant orangutans.
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Post by brobear on Feb 12, 2021 5:05:28 GMT -5
The relevant paper is : Rijksen, H. D. (1978). A field study on Sumatran orang utans (Pongo pygmaeus abelii Lesson 1827): ecology, behaviour and conservation (Doctoral dissertation, Veenman). Here is a link to the PDF : library.wur.nl/WebQuery/wurpubs/fulltext/209957 A young captive female was killed by a Clouded Leopard in her cage : Fatal Clouded Leopard Attack. On 21st December, our vets were awakened at dawn by the urgent call of Pak Cobe, an orangutan keeper. That morning, Pak Cobe had gone into the Forest Quarantine area, and discovered a young orangutan dead in her cage. Both her arms were chewed off; her chest torn open. We found footprints, claw marks and animal hairs nearby, and tooth and claw marks on her body. From these and the nature of the injuries, we concluded she had been attacked by a big cat, most likely a clouded leopard which is the only large carnivore found in Tanjung Puting National Park. There was nothing we could do for her; we immediately notified the Park Authorities and focused on increasing site security for staff and orangutans. We shifted young orangutans indoors immediately; set about reviewing security, commenced all-night patrols, added spotlights and strengthened the undersides of cages to prevent access. Forest police worked with our staff to build a trap in an effort to capture the leopard. Numerous villagers joined our night patrols on their own accord, and the amount of support we received was both unexpected and humbling. The savagery of the attack caused deep shock. We have young children and babies at the post, and a reaction among some quarters was to get the Forest Police to hunt and shoot the leopard. Happily however this has been averted. We pointed out that the leopard was only following its instincts; no human lives have been lost; there is plenty of scope for harm-free methods such as trapping, tranquillising and transferring the animal to less populated areas. The clouded leopard is also an endangered species which should be protected. Yes, we grieve for the orangutan who was lost and we understand the risk to humans; however we cannot take a life for a life. To date, we have not succeeded in trapping the leopard. We will continue with our attempts; we will also do all we can to better protect our orangutans and our staff. We have discontinued work at our reforestation swamp site for the time being, as staff must go through dense forest to reach this site; work will not recommence until we are more confident staff will not be placed at risk. We wish to thank staff, visitors, Forest Police, villagers at Desa Sei Sekonyer and the Park Authorities for their support during this difficult time. Circumstances are unknown, such as whether the cage was large enough for the Leopard to enter and the Orangutan to try and defend herself in or if the Clouded Leopard attacked from the outside. Amongst the web on general info sites, there is a lot of talk of Clouded Leopards being a predator of Orangutans other than adult males. When trying to find the supporting papers I did find one on disease in Ornagutans that also mentioned confirmed and possible predators : Some very interesting stuff there; the paper on Sumatran Tiger predation was Borner, M, (1987) - Status and Conservation of the Sumatran Tiger. An adult Sumatran Tiger is about 260 lbs, an adult male Orangutan about 200 lbs. The mention of Bearded Pig predation is also interesting and the relevant paper is Galdikas, B.M.F (1978) Orang-utan Death and Scavenging By Pigs. Again it'd be great if anyone had it and it's also interesting a Bearded Pig could possibly try and predate an Orangutan. Extract : "Pongid remains are rarely recovered from tropical rain forests. Observations of a Bornean bearded pig (Sus barbatus) scavenging an orangutan (Pongo pygmaeus) carcass and the recovery of an orangutan skull fragment corroborates evidence from Africa and suggests that the scavenging of wild pigs may play an important role in the destruction of pongid remains." It also suggested at another site that Clouded Leopard may attack and kill sleeping young and female orangutans in nests. An extra bit of info also reports a Tiger possiby killing some, from the New Scientist : At Ketambe station, for example, several young orangutans were killed by a Clouded Leopard, and even when a large sleeping cage was provided to protect inexperienced animals a tiger still managed to break in through the floor. The largest verified clouded leopard weight I know of was 23kgs, from an animal from mainland asia. Anecdotally, CL are larger on Borneo and this would make sense from an ecological and evolutionary perspective too. Images of poached specimens seem to suggest they can also get quite large, but this is not an ideal reference. Regardless, I think a 23kg specimen could certainly take a female orangutan, but even a potentially huge Bornean male would struggle with a male orangutan. I.M.O the orangutans very long, matted fur could also provide protection against clawing that other great apes lack. Whilst the author concludes that the CL would be an ineffective predator of adult orangutans, not much was known about the CL at the time and this conclusion may be erroneous from being based off the specimen captured. A 10kg CL is a small specimen and possibly subadult as it was a male, and may have already been sick due to it's death from sepsis after capture. Thus, it may not be representative to a prime, large adult specimen. These accounts also show that despite the fur larger orangutans are still very vulnerable to clawing. *First Posted by Canidae.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 13, 2021 23:03:19 GMT -5
Wild chimpanzees deprived a leopard of its kill: Implications for the origin of hominin confrontational scavenging
Abstract
This study reports the first observed case of wild chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) obtaining animal prey freshly killed by a sympatric leopard (Panthera pardus) and scavenging it with the leopard still nearby. This observation has important implications for the emergence of confrontational scavenging, which may have played a significant role in human evolution. Many scholars agree that eating meat became important during human evolution, and hominins first obtained meat by scavenging. However, it is debatable whether scavenging behavior was "passive" or "confrontational (power)." The latter is more dangerous, as it requires facing the original predator, and it is thus considered to have been important for the evolution of several human traits, including cooperation and language. Chimpanzees do scavenge meat, although rarely, but no previous evidence of confrontational scavenging has hitherto emerged. Thus, it was assumed that they are averse to confrontation with even leopard-sized predators. However, in the observed case the chimpanzees frequently emitted waa barks, which indicated that they were aware of the leopard's presence but they nevertheless continued to eat the scavenged meat. In addition, we compiled and reviewed 49 cases of chimpanzee encounters with animal carcasses in the Mahale Mountains of Tanzania in 1980-2017. Chimpanzees scavenged meat in 36.7% of these cases, and tended to eat the meat when it was fresh or if the animal species was usually hunted by chimpanzees. However, no evidence indicated that carcasses were avoided when leopard involvement was likely. These results suggest that chimpanzee-sized hominins could potentially confront and deprive leopard-size carnivores of meat.
www.researchgate.net/publication/333538218_Wild_chimpanzees_deprived_a_leopard_of_its_kill_Implications_for_the_origin_of_hominin_confrontational_scavenging
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Post by brobear on Apr 14, 2021 5:42:38 GMT -5
www.softschools.com/facts/animals/dwarf_crocodile_facts/1039/ *To the best of my knowledge, the dwarf crocodile, which rarely surpasses 6 feet in length, is the only crocodile within the domain of the gorilla. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_rock_python *Africa's largest snake species and one of the world's largest, the typical African rock python adult measures 3 to 3.53 m (9 ft 10 in to 11 ft 7 in) in total length (including tail), with only unusually large specimens likely to exceed 4.8 m (15 ft 9 in). Reports of specimens over 6 m (19 ft 8 in) are considered reliable, although larger specimens have never been confirmed. Weights are reportedly in the range of 44 to 55 kg (97 to 121 lb), per one study adults are expected to weigh only up to 32.2 kg (71 lb). Exceptionally large specimens may weigh 91 kg (201 lb) or more. On average, large adults of African rock pythons are quite heavily built, perhaps more so than most specimens of the somewhat longer reticulated as well as Indian and Burmese pythons and far more so than the Amethystine python, although the species is on average less heavily built than the green anaconda. The African species may be the second heaviest living snake with some authors agreeing that it can exceptionally exceed 90 kg (200 lb). One specimen, reportedly 7 m (23 ft 0 in) in length, was killed by K. H. Kroft in 1958 and was claimed to have had a 1.5 m (4 ft 11 in) juvenile Nile crocodile in its stomach. An even larger specimen considered authentic was shot in The Gambia and measured 7.5 m (24 ft 7 in)
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 18, 2021 11:39:18 GMT -5
The picture above reminds me of King Kong tearing a giant snake apart by tearing its jaws.
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Post by brobear on Apr 20, 2021 5:18:29 GMT -5
Leopard; the apex predator of the African Congo basin. On a documentary I once watched within the past 10 years, leopards from numerous leopard environments were discussed. On the topic of the African Congo leopard, it was clearly stated that, "the one animal that this leopard fears is the chimpanzee." From here, they discussed how chimps will chase leopards from their territory. As for the gorilla, I'm sure that a leopard will find the occasional juvenile or she-ape who has wandered too far from the safety of the troop. If a leopard were a true threat to a silverback gorilla, this big bull ape would no be sleeping on the ground every night. Also, the gorilla's habit of charging towards an intruder, I'm certain, originated from him chasing off leopards - which I can assure, you will run from a silverback gorilla. *Edit and add: Think about this: IF a leopard were capable of killing a healthy silverback gorilla, and considering that he sleeps alone on the ground each and every night, and considering that there is an abundance of meat on a bull gorilla, why then would a leopard not hunt gorillas every night? There could be no easier prey to be found.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 22, 2021 15:46:12 GMT -5
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