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Post by brobear on Aug 16, 2024 3:59:14 GMT -5
I've been fighting this battle since either late 1999 or early 2000. Roughly 24 years later, the facts are well known. During my first several years of participating in various wild animal face-off sites, I was learning just how little knowledge I actually had. I was discovering new brown bear subspecies, new species of bears, and all about extinct bears. After polar (missing since Aug. 2020)) and I opened the Domain of the Bears in 2017, I have continued to discover bears that I previously knew nothing about. These are the topics I would love to return to. Debating against radical and (most of them) juvenile big cat fanboys, I was often forced to research for answers. I have known since I was perhaps between 6 and 8 years old, that a bear is stronger than a big cat. However, knowing and proving are two separate subjects. I also play with an educational handicap. I quit school halfway through the 10th grade, and then worked with a bricklayer until I joined the U.S.M.C. in 1966 at the age of 17. In later years, I got my G.E.D. at the age of 30. Back to "Tiger vs Bear" and the problems connected. We discuss many big cat scenarios dealing with various big cats and bears. But the main subject falls to "Amur tiger vs Ussuri brown bear" and for good reason. The R.F.E. is the only place on Earth shared by both a tiger subspecies and a brown bear subspecies. Sure, we talk about the tiger and sloth bear interactions in India, but in this case the tiger is always double or sometimes triple the weight of the smaller bear. We talk about sloth bears displacing leopards from their kills. We talk about black bears displacing cougars from their kills. But, the Russian taiga is the only place on Earth where a tiger might come face-to-face with a brown bear which, in terms of average sizes, the bear and the tiger are roughly equal in HBL - two Apex predators of similar size. Now; down and dirty to the problem. We know for a fact, that there has yet to be found even one single documented case of a tiger killing an adult male brown bear which has been confirmed by the scientific community. Regardless of this fact, highly popular online wild animal sites are putting out false information which both school children and curious adults are reading and believing. The upper-crust of these sites (the so-called Elite) are ignoring the truth and are not separating confirmed facts from opinions. The most popular of those sites is wildfact.com/forum/ ________________________________________________________ I am looking for the day when the Administration of WF (1) announces that they are still with no real evidence of a tiger ever killing a full-grown male brown bear and that no such report has ever been verified and confirmed and (2) will continue to reprimand any forum member who claims otherwise. When that day comes, I will personally step out of the big cat vs bear topics completely. However, more than likely, my team members, many of them with greater knowledge than myself and all better educated here at the Domain, will probably continue the battle against the relentless, radical, highly biased, juvenile fanboys who are unable to man-up to reality and accept the truth. Yes. I will steer clear of any and all big cat vs bear topics if you are willing to claim only confirmed events as facts. Announce that there was no hard evidence to support the W.J. Jankowski story, the Ochkarik and Chlamida story, or the Odyr story. Also, reprimand your members (no matter who he is) when they break this rule.
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Post by brobear on Aug 16, 2024 4:30:33 GMT -5
This so-called "impressive bear" is covered in ice and snow while those big bear footprints are clearly visible in the snow. Also, one of the "team" remarked that the size of the footprints did not match with the size of the bear carcass. Why was this not mentioned in WF?
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 16, 2024 4:45:43 GMT -5
Their stupidity and hypocrisy is beyond words.
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Post by brobear on Aug 16, 2024 4:54:28 GMT -5
Their stupidity and hypocrisy is beyond words. True. Peter says (quote) "The second is to get rid of your bloody agenda. You do agendas in the pub." My agenda is to gather information all about bears. We've done pretty well here I believe. However, certain factions continue to post unproven fables about tigers killing full-grown male brown bears which are second only to polar bears as top ranking land-based predators. First, if we place the polar bear as an aquatic predator. If you will drop your "tiger is king of all living creatures agenda", I will do as promised above.
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Post by brobear on Aug 16, 2024 6:42:53 GMT -5
WF - Big cat and Bear tale - from post #278 to post #301. When the story came out in 2019 that an adult male tiger might have been killed by a sloth bear, the tiger fans went bananas! Notice that bear fans, including myself, never proclaimed the incident as proof that sometimes the sloth bear wins a fight against an adult male tiger. Not until such an incident is conformed. I remember years ago, in the old AVA, when I proudly posted that a sun bear and a Sumatran tiger had fought and killed each other. Peter was quick to point out that that story had not been confirmed and could not be considered as fact. I conceded.
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Post by brobear on Aug 16, 2024 7:19:17 GMT -5
Peter says.... "The fourth is to quit producing misinformation about wild Amur tigers." Exactly what misinformation are you referring to? Misinformation from Peter and other members of W.F. - often talking about tigers ranging from 600 to 700 pounds or more. Confirmed: The heaviest male Amur tiger actually weighed - Dr. Feng Limin confirmed he had personally seen a wild male Amur tiger of 270 kg (596 pounds). ________________________________ Why exaggerate? Isn't a 596 pound tiger big enough?
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Post by brobear on Aug 16, 2024 13:12:38 GMT -5
Peter says.... All in all, I'd say we could conclude an average adult male Amur tiger and an average adult male Ussuri brown bear seem to be on a kind of par. This means killing experience, large canines, agility, speed and aggression on one hand (Amur tigers) and robustness, weight, power and durability on the other (Ussuri brown bears) more or less compare. This conclusion, of course, is without exceptions. Meaning you just never know. In the end, all adult mammals are individuals and they can surprise you big time. _________________________________________________________ Well, Peter is not wrong. When a biologist says that tigers and brown bears are fairly even in strength and killing ability, and neither the tiger nor the bear will always win this fight, that biologist is correct. Biologists do not have "who wins in a face-off" on their minds. They are thinking on the terms of predation. What bears will an adult male tiger ambush? A moon bear, an adolescent brown bear, or a female brown bear. An Ussuri brown she-bear and a male Amur tiger are nearly equal in weight and strength. Such a fight can go either way, should the ambush end with a fight. However, reality check.... the tiger will always have the weight advantage. He will never ambush a bear of his own weight - according to known events.
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 16, 2024 14:13:16 GMT -5
So true.
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Post by brobear on Aug 16, 2024 15:21:17 GMT -5
This means that when we hear of a long-lasting terrible struggle between a tiger and his brown bear prey, such as with at least two brown bears that Dale killed; the female brown bear was well below the weight of the tiger. The big she-bear was estimated to have weighed from 330 to 440 pounds. This averages out to: 385 pounds. Average fully-grown female Ussuri brown bear (7 years+) - 415 pounds. So Dale, a 445 pound male Amur tiger, ambushed and killed a not-unusually large female brown bear from ambush. The only newsworthy thing about this story is that the bear managed to put-up a good fight. A full-grown female Ussuri brown bear is a tough opponent for a full-grown male Amur tiger. Always taken from ambush. Average fully-grown female Ussuri brown bear (7 years+) - 415 pounds. Average Indian sloth bear - boar: 242 pounds - give this some thought.
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Post by brobear on Aug 17, 2024 14:51:06 GMT -5
Peter said; "Start reading 'peer-reviewed' documents and try to understand what the authors are really saying." ______________________________________________________________________________________ *One thing that is not on any peer-reviewed document is a confirmed account of a tiger killing a full-grown male brown bear.
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Post by Granolah on Aug 17, 2024 15:19:10 GMT -5
Didn’t Warsaw prove 3 year old brown bears can have 16-18cm foot prints ?
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Post by brobear on Aug 18, 2024 1:42:19 GMT -5
Didn’t Warsaw prove 3 year old brown bears can have 16-18cm foot prints ? I'm not sure; maybe so. But, I do know that one of those guys on the scene stated that the bear footprints did not match with the smaller bear carcass. We can also see that, while the tracks appear fresh and easy to see, the carcass is covered with ice and snow. My one big question is, why was the carcass not studied? They took no measurements. They could have taken a limb or the skull from which the age and size of the bear could have been determined. All-in-all, they produced no evidence what-so-ever. Here are the words of (fanboy) - quote; "Yuri Kya found and reported an undeniable, confirmed (and recent) case of a large, fully grown adult male brown bear that was hunted and killed in a fight by a smaller tiger." Those guys use the word "confirmed" very loosely.
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Post by brobear on Aug 18, 2024 8:03:18 GMT -5
The fanboyism on wildfact illustrated by peter (the alleged good, 'mature poster') by allowing mountainlord (the same guy that's been banned twice from that site before) is insane. Peter actually banned kingkodiak from that forum for simply posting a screenshot of his mail communication with a reputable expert but mountain lord, the fanboy who's conclusions go as far as tigresses hunting male brown bears (something never recorded in scientific literature) is not only getting allowed on that website, but also liked by peter himself and allowed on the extinction thread of all? Lol.... I'd honestly love if carnivora and peter deleted each others' forums in an epic duel, two fanboy propaganda forums getting wiped from the internet. Where are you nocapakabl?
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Post by brobear on Aug 18, 2024 8:41:41 GMT -5
Sometimes it seems like those die-hard big cat fans portray the wilderness as an action movie where the protagonists are regularly fighting each other; they can brabble as much as they want but them spending hours on forum paragraphs won't change anything. Just recently I've come across a study on lion hunting behavior which I downloaded from SciHub and the interesting thing in there was that male lions predominantly stick to ambush hunting whereas the females are out hunting in the open plains where vegetation is rare and the prey needs to be confronted; you normally wouldn't expect that when looking at all the media and how the male lion is portrayed by it, it feels good to lift the curtains on a regular basis and actually getting a look behind the scenes. Most of these fanboys have their "Chosen One" and want to build a myth around it that fits their narrative; and when they are confronted with the truth, they will run to places where idiocy is appreciated and intelligence gets removed (for example Carnivora and their fat-nosed cougar/lion fan admin). Ah, the Carnival tyrant.
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Post by Granolah on Aug 18, 2024 10:07:01 GMT -5
Didn’t Warsaw prove 3 year old brown bears can have 16-18cm foot prints ? I'm not sure; maybe so. But, I do know that one of those guys on the scene stated that the bear footprints did not match with the smaller bear carcass. We can also see that, while the tracks appear fresh and easy to see, the carcass is covered with ice and snow. My one big question is, why was the carcass not studied? They took no measurements. They could have taken a limb or the skull from which the age and size of the bear could have been determined. All-in-all, they produced no evidence what-so-ever. Here are the words of (fanboy) - quote; "Yuri Kya found and reported an undeniable, confirmed (and recent) case of a large, fully grown adult male brown bear that was hunted and killed in a fight by a smaller tiger." Those guys use the word "confirmed" very loosely. Yes. “ My one big question is, why was the carcass not studied? They took no measurements. They could have taken a limb or the skull from which the age and size of the bear could have been determined. All-in-all, they produced no evidence what-so-ever” I believe these guys were just forest rangers if I remember correctly. Not animal biologists. Sergey Kolchin also doubted the bear’s size wouldn’t match the footprints or something like that..
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Post by Granolah on Aug 18, 2024 10:09:29 GMT -5
Didn’t Warsaw prove 3 year old brown bears can have 16-18cm foot prints ? I'm not sure; maybe so. But, I do know that one of those guys on the scene stated that the bear footprints did not match with the smaller bear carcass. We can also see that, while the tracks appear fresh and easy to see, the carcass is covered with ice and snow. My one big question is, why was the carcass not studied? They took no measurements. They could have taken a limb or the skull from which the age and size of the bear could have been determined. All-in-all, they produced no evidence what-so-ever. Here are the words of (fanboy) - quote; "Yuri Kya found and reported an undeniable, confirmed (and recent) case of a large, fully grown adult male brown bear that was hunted and killed in a fight by a smaller tiger." Those guys use the word "confirmed" very loosely. This carnivora.net/siberian-tiger-v-ussuri-brown-bear-t8294-s5715.html#p286360
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Post by brobear on Aug 18, 2024 11:58:51 GMT -5
Warsaw.... As far I know we don't have "any pictures." of the " 18 cm paw" And this is the problem that leave room for speculation. Have you ever noticed post 5370 ? "... Sergey Kolchin, who doubted, based on the size of the body, that the front palm was measured correctly. This bear is clearly not like a large male...." ________________________________________ Who is Sergey Kolchin? - www.instagram.com/sergey_bears/reels/
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Post by brobear on Aug 18, 2024 15:51:22 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Aug 19, 2024 9:05:43 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Aug 21, 2024 0:33:39 GMT -5
Quote from a tiger fanboy....Yuri Kya is the leader of a ranger force responsible for protecting and conserving the wildlife species and forest. Meaning, he's the top ranger. He's also a master tracker. Yuri Kya would easily be able to accurately measure, estimate and determine the size of an animal, and it's paw size or tracks. ______________________________________________ Of course, this kid could not provide any evidence showing that this guy is a master tracker who is an expert at reading animal tracks. He just makes this stuff up in his head and is praised for it there in WF. Why would any professional attempt to determine the size of a bear by measuring footprints when the bear's carcass is right there? LOL! domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/1701/park-ranger?page=1&scrollTo=65456 If there is some reason why this frozen carcass cannot be measured, then why not either transport the frozen carcass to where it can be properly examined or at least remove some parts such as a leg and the head. The size and age of the bear could have been determined. Although (in reality) we do know that it was determined that the footprints did not match with the size of the smaller bear. domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/1607/odyr-misha?page=1The Odyr story has been debunked.
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