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Post by brobear on Dec 27, 2022 13:26:33 GMT -5
I find all of this very funny to be honest. Interactions between Bengal tigers and sloth bears are much better documented than interactions between brown bears and Siberian tigers. When you look into literature you'll see that the respect between the two species is enormous as a sloth bear can prevail extremely well against the Bengal tiger and even win some interactions. Recently I talked to an experienced Indian wildlife photographer on Instagram and he told me what everyone out there tells you: tigers are very careful when trying to prey on sloth bears and if the ambush doesn't go well, they'll run. He told me that male tigers are only successful if the ambush goes well, otherwise they retreat because a sloth bear will fight until the very end and could cause life-threatening injuries. If anyone wants to see my conversation with him, write me a direct message as I am not allowed to share it publicly. On the other hand you have the Siberian tiger who is so rarely encountered that researchers have never seen a single tiger in their entire life. 95% of the time the researchers stumble across carcasses or scats and draw conclusions. So my question would be (regardless of what the smelly tiger fanboys of Wildfact have to say about this as my first point on sloth bears is 100% true and an established fact): Why should a Siberian tiger bring down a large male brown bear with ease when the other slightly bigger and beefier version of it has a hard time successfully fighting a sloth bear? I mean, it's quite obvious that this bear wasn't killed by the tiger; it very likely died by natural causes and various predators scavenged on it. Which would lead me to my next point that you'll see this report in various newspapers and websites but not in a scientifically approved document; one of those documents that runs through months of verification procedures and gets accepted roughly half a year after being handed in for verification because a team of professionals checks every single source given in the appendix and if the paragraphs coincide with the source. You'll never see this kind of verification coming from Russia when brown bears and tigers are involved and as a matter of fact I don't think I'll live long enough to see it too as it will never happen. Surely a headline with the words "Tiger kills huge brown bear" gets more views than "Brown bear carcass scavenged by a variety of predators". So no, none of this incident is officially confirmed and the teenager manelts (I am afraid also fully grown adults, sadly) won't be able to leave this world in peace as they don't have a single clue on animal behavior or how an ecosystem works; they'll be on their death bed still eagerly waiting for a tiger to randomly pick a fight with a huge male brown bear. You know, it's a sad thing as those people are driven by one thing: they have a favorite animal (mostly a cat, surprise surprise) and their whole purpose is to prove that this animal can beat anything and is untouchable. They don't even care about animals, if you remove the aspect of animal fights/predation from a website, they'll just abandon it completely as they don't even care about other things. Quote: Which would lead me to my next point that you'll see this report in various newspapers and websites but not in a scientifically approved document; one of those documents that runs through months of verification procedures and gets accepted roughly half a year after being handed in for verification because a team of professionals checks every single source given in the appendix and if the paragraphs coincide with the source. You'll never see this kind of verification coming from Russia when brown bears and tigers are involved and as a matter of fact I don't think I'll live long enough to see it too as it will never happen. Surely a headline with the words "Tiger kills huge brown bear" gets more views than "Brown bear carcass scavenged by a variety of predators".
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 7:46:54 GMT -5
Four points to remember:
1- Tiger hunt bears smaller than themselves. Tigers are full-time predators. 2- Bears do not hunt tigers. Bears are omnivores. 3- There is only a small number of adult male tigers confirmed killed by bears. 4- There is no adult male brown bear confirmed killed by a tiger. ____________________________________________________
*Note: Only a few adult male tigers confirmed kill by bears because bears have no reason hunt tigers. *Note: No adult male brown bear confirmed killed by a tiger because tigers do not hunt adult male brown bears.
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 7:53:58 GMT -5
Newspaper headlines: Brutal fight to the death: Amur tiger killed and ate a brown bear in a nature reserve near Khabarovsk November 29, 2022 1:08 am www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27477/4684605/?fromrss=582 The write-up most definitely not from any biologist. The Amur tiger is an absolute predator. This means that he has no natural enemies, and he feels like a full-fledged ruler of the Far Eastern taiga. Only a brown bear can compete with him for this title. These disputes are most often bloody and cruel. *Note: a fight between an adult male tiger and a full-grown male brown bear is exceedingly rare. Sounds good for the unlearned reader though. Traces of one of these fights were found in the southern region of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve. *Note: by these fights they mean where moon bears have been ambushed and killed. An impressive size bear (the width of the callus of the front paw is 18 centimeters) did not have time to hibernate. And this became a fatal mistake - the Amur tiger overtook the clubfoot. *Note: they found a frozen "club-foot" from the shatun bear measuring 7.09 inches wide (not a huge bear). Did not have time to hibernate. *Note: the newspaper reporter doesn't get it. This bear failed to fatten-up for his long winter sleep. He was probably a very old bear (the most common victims) and was already near death from freezing and/or starvation. In fact, it is very likely that the tiger simply found the carcass of a dead shatun bear. - Judging by the traces, the fight here unfolded serious. The animals fought for a long time, but the tiger still won. He didn't get hurt. Such a conclusion can be drawn due to the absence of bloody stains at the place of his lying down - that is, rest, which we found next to the half-eaten bear carcass. The tiger will probably return here later to continue eating for a few more days, - said Yuri Kya, chief engineer for forest protection and forestry activities of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve. *Note: OK, this story is told by an engineer. Maybe there was a struggle between the half-dead bear and the healthy tiger. Quote; "- Judging by the traces, the fight here unfolded serious. The animals fought for a long time, but the tiger still won." *Note: so, the healthy tiger managed, after a prolonged struggle, to kill a half-dead bear. Maybe, (no eye witness and an engineer is not an expert at reading tracks on the ground), but just maybe a tiger killed a shatun bear. A shatun bear will wander the frozen wilderness while starving to death. Usually, by the time he dies from the bitter cold and starvation (he has lost all body fat) he is less than half his healthy weight. So, basically, the tiger fans can now celebrate that a tiger might have managed to kill a half-dead bear, or else found a dead bear. Newspapers are not a good source for accurate information. The big male tiger killed an adolescent 5 year old brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:01:22 GMT -5
The story continues: This summer, bears have repeatedly become the prey of tigers. The inspectors found the remains of the Himalayan bears and the excrement of the tiger, in which the claws of the clubfoot were found. Most often, the victims of the striped one were one-year-old individuals. The tiger confidently defeats the Himalayan bear until the age of three. Читайте на www.hab.kp.ru/daily/27477/4684605/Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:03:22 GMT -5
The above story, "Brutal fight to the death:", which is a fitting start with sensationalism to sell newspapers. Yes, this is a newspaper story, as told by Yuri Kya, chief engineer for forest protection and forestry activities, through a newspaper reporter. Even though the killing of a sickly shatun bear puts no feather into the hat of the tiger fanboy (who is taking great pleasure in this story) still, the story is not confirmed until it is told by a biologist. The fact that the story is told to the local newspaper rather than to the Russian Academy of Sciences Permanent Expedition for the Study of Red Data Book Animals and Other Important Wildlife in Russia, The Amur Tiger Programme, tells me that this story is meaningless. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:06:27 GMT -5
Now lets examine this funny guy. First of all, why is there need to ask that tigers prey on bears? They do, everybody knows and we know these bears are always smaller than tigers meaning females, cubs and sub-adults. Second, the biologist he contacted himself said that the paw does not look like of the dead bear, so its a proof the the paw isn't that of a bear. What is that proof to that fanboy? And Warsaw did made a great point, that the bear was covered with snow which means he died a long time ago, while the snow prints weren't which shows that these weren't as old as the bear's death day. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:10:09 GMT -5
Pictured: the male tiger called Odyr, who is the tiger suspected of being among other scavengers in the Khekhtsir reserve which had fed on the frozen bear carcass. The cause of the bear's death remains unknown. The only thing actually known for sure is that numerous scavengers fed upon the bear's carcass. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:12:20 GMT -5
This is what a scientific report looks like. We will not see the story-book events such as the W.J. Jankowski report (1943), the Batalov event (2017), nor the Khabarovsk Territory event (2022) written in a real scientific biological report by reputable biologists. Batalov is a biologist, but he did not file any report about a tiger killing an adult male brown bear. The tiger fanboys simply considered second-hand sources as fact. As of this day of 12/21/22, there remains not one single confirmed report of a tiger ever killing an adult male brown bear. *This is what a scientific report looks like: www.researchgate.net/publication/331693847_Interspecific_Relationships_between_the_Amur_Tiger_Panthera_tigris_altaica_and_Brown_Ursus_arctos_and_Asiatic_Black_Ursus_thibetanus_Bears __________________________________________________________ To back-up my words, simply write To: Dale Miquelle Wildlife Conservation Society | WCS · Russia Program Ph.D. Wildlife Ecology ... and ask him this simple question, "Do you know of any confirmed reports of a tiger killing a full-grown male brown bear?" *Show us an Official Biologist Report. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:15:17 GMT -5
Email from biologist David meanwell, Director of the Bear conservation society. uk.linkedin.com/in/david-meanwell-b960355By providing accessible, accurate and comprehensive sources of information on all things "bear" we work to help those who want to learn more about bears and to use their knowledge to speak out for bears and to help achieve our vision.Since they have all information regarding bears of the world, i think, their opinion is reliable and here is the email. "Thanks for contacting us. Tigers are known to catch and kill bears for food. Usually these are young female Himalayan bears. Bears will always fight back and can inflict injuries on tigers, and probably sometimes kill them, so tigers are often very wary of attacking bears."
Kind regards, David Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:16:49 GMT -5
Enlargement: Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:20:07 GMT -5
Email from David meanwell, Director of the Bear Conservation programme My question: Hello dear David,
Thanks for your recent reply. I agree with that. Sorry, if my again email bothers you but i just want to ask a simple and clear question. I contacted many experts about this question before, but as usual, they either didn't reply or do not give a clear statement. Since you are a Bear expert and have been well informed about bear species of the world. Here is my question,
"If a 620 pound Brown Bear fights to death with a 400 pound Siberian tiger, so would win?"
I know that bears are occasionally killed and eaten by tigers (as wolves do) but as a rule, those bears are smaller than the tiger almost 100 pounds or more. But, in gerenal, is a big brown bear dominant over tigers like they are on large wolf packs? For me your opinion carry a lot of importance since you are professional. I hope you reply soon.
Your sincerely,
His reply:
Hi,
If the tiger ambushed the bar, which of course is how thy hunt, my money would be on a victory for the tiger. I suspect that if the bear started to get the upper hand, so to speak, the tiger owuld escape and live to fight another day.
Regards,
Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:23:09 GMT -5
Reply#194 I don't think that he talking about 620 pound bear and 420 pound tiger. However, as i understand, he means that in general, a tiger kills bear in ambush while is chased off in a fight which means the bear dominates tiger in fights generally. So i think he indirectly is favouring a bear in a fight, as he favours a tiger in ambush? Any thought? Reply#191
Bro, in that case we do not exactly know all the details about the female bear. Was it that big as tiger? Who knows. Thats just a speculation which can be true and not. Did dima really killed that bear or it was another cause? Again, who knows? However, although its not totally confirmed still i don't hesitate to believe it. Tiger killed by ambush, ok fine, its their only way of killing. Let dima fight that female brown bear in a face off. And we exactly know what would happen. The tiger simply flees away. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:26:26 GMT -5
From David: Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:27:45 GMT -5
First of all, a tiger is not going to ambush a full-grown male brown bear. But, for the sake of conversation, if he did, the neck of the bear is too thick for the tiger's long canines to reach the vertebrate. The tiger would fail to make a quick kill. Therefore, the wounded bear would be able to shake-off the big cat. In most cases, just as David suggests, the tiger would retreat. Sometimes, the tiger fails to make the usual quick kill even with a large she-bear. But, I seriously doubt that a tiger ever ambushes a bear of equal weight unless perhaps in Autumn when the bear is simply extra plump. But, that is still a bear much smaller than the tiger in size (length/height). ____________________________________________________________ *I will edit and add; If the tiger had the time to spend ripping and tearing and chewing on the bear's neck, then he could eventually reach the vertebrate and kill the bear. But, of course, that is not about to happen. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:29:14 GMT -5
Tiger Odyr became the owner of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve near Khabarovsk and surprised environmentalists 21-12-2022. www.province.ru/habarovsk/news/tigr-odyr-stal-khozyainom-bolshekhekhtsirskogo-zapovednika-pod-khabarovskom-i-udivil-ekologov.html Conducting a census of animals in the reserve, its employees were surprised at the composure and confidence of the Odyr tiger. Having trailed it, the hunters saw that the tiger crossed their trail just a couple of minutes ago, while he fucked with his paw and let out a jet, Provintsiya.ru reports on December 21, citing the Amur Reserve Federal State Institution. Olga Apollonova, press secretary of the FBGU “Reserved Amur Region”, informed that the first stage of the winter route registration (abbreviated ZMU) of animals and the installation of camera traps took place in the Bolshekhekhtsirsky Reserve, as soon as a stable snow cover formed in the taiga. The employees of the protected area, together with the specialists of the "Reserved Amur Region", were distributed along six routes with a total length of 105 kilometers and, some on skis, some on snowstorms, set off at the same time in the early morning to carefully and painstakingly study every trace left by a forest dweller on the snow cover of reserved paths. As a result, as the trackers reported, Dmitry Grankin and Yuri Kya counted three tigers along the route of the Kabanya-Polovinka streams. Traces of the male Odyr (the width of the imprint of the callus of the front paw is 11 cm) were found from the fish hatchery towards the Polovinka stream. As it turned out later, he crossed the Polovinka and was noted in the area of the Bykov stream. The accounting route - he did not cross the Sosninsky stream (apparently, he stayed for a day). The female Zlata (width of the callus of the front paw is 10 cm) and her one cub (width of the callus of the front paw is 6-7 cm) were found in the buffer zone of the reserve near the Kedrovy farm. The second cub, apparently, moved a little to the side from the path. “According to my analysis of the movement of tigers, it turns out the following: on November 27, Odyr was noted by us on the carcass of a bear that he had killed earlier; on November 30, he was noticed by a detachment of border troops at the junction of the Bogdanovskaya-Chirkinskaya outposts. Now, apparently, Odyr is going back to the southern exposition of the reserve, judging by the straightness of his course, ”summarizes Yury Kya, chief engineer for forest protection and forestry activities of the Bolshekhekhtsirsky reserve. Ecologists also noticed that the male's left hind leg bleeds a little. However, judging by the footprints in the snow, the wound is not critical. The Pathfinders were surprised by Odyr's composure and confidence when meeting people. “ The fact is that during the ZMU, my colleague and I decided to cut the arc of the “borannik” directly along the forestry road of the Polovinka River, while the tiger was walking quietly at that time, almost sneaking in parallel-oncoming along the “borannik”, hiding behind the windfall aspen and missing us, crossed the accounting route behind, - Yuri Kya describes the situation . - Coming out on the Buranovsky trail, we saw the trail of a tiger. I decided to tread it a little along the "burannik". Walking back, I saw that the tiger crossed our trail just two minutes ago, and after crossing our trail, he raked a couple of times and launched a jet. At the first meeting with me on July 31, 2015, he did not behave like that . And here is what Yuri Kya wrote in his diary in 2015, when he first met Odyr: “Ahead, 80 meters away, I saw a tiger moving lightly jogging across the ski slope. From an unexpected meeting, I was dumbfounded, then convulsively began to take out the lens of the navigator to photograph the magnificent predator. Apparently, with peripheral vision, the tiger noticed these awkward movements, turned his head in my direction and somehow tightened up so that his shoulder blades stood up like a hump, without changing the gait, crossed the remaining open space and disappeared into the reserved silence ... ". As Yuri Kya notes, then the Odyr tiger was young and inexperienced, and now the beast is in the full dawn of its strength, and therefore is calm. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 8:33:08 GMT -5
TV channel "Khabarovsk" | Amur tiger mauled a brown bear in the reserve... yandex.ru/video/preview/5924337490626234978 ________________________________________________ Apex Titan claims that these two posts (directly above) are proof that the tiger Odyr killed a huge male brown bear... ? *Note; the only mention of the bear; Quote, "According to my analysis of the movement of tigers, it turns out the following: on November 27, Odyr was noted by us on the carcass of a bear that he had killed earlier." Question; What makes them think that the tiger killed the bear? What evidence do they have? What was the size of the bear? Was the bear male or female? *Edit and add: Nothing taken from a newspaper can be considered as a confirmation. Only a biologist's study and personal report, showing all evidence and proof, after being reviewed, might lead to the confirmed killing of a full-grown male brown bear by a tiger. Thus far, this story has not provided any evidence that there was a struggle between a tiger and a bear. Only the opinions of several men; their professionalism as trackers questionable. Odyr and Misha
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 9:20:44 GMT -5
"Amur tiger crushed the brown bear" - is this the way a professional biologist talks? "In this case, the beetroot (a biological term for brown bear?) was not the largest, so the tiger was initially the favorite in this fight. __________________________________________________________________ *Conclusion; the bear was a small male brown bear (probably sub-adult) undernourished shatun dying from starvation and freezing. Perhaps the tiger finished him off or maybe the tiger simply found his dead body. *Two months ago today that I first read about this "incident"... *I'm still waiting for the official biological report. If this incident is indeed confirmed, as the juvenile tiger fanboys are already announcing, then there will indeed be an official report. Because it was a small bear. (Not my email) Q:Здравствуйте, я недавно слышал, что в заповеднике была битва тигра с медведем У вас есть больше информации об этом медведе? Reserve:Здравствуйте!Медведя звали Миша, кличка «Косолапый», возраст примерно 3 года Подвид бурый. В ходе сражения тигр не пострадал. Начальник отдела охраны Милежик М.П. С Уважением, филиал Большехехцирский ФГ БУ"Заповедное Приамурье' Translation: Q:Hello, I heard recently that there was a tiger-bear fight in the reserve Do you have any more information about this bear? Reserve: Hello, the bear's name was Misha, and he was about 3 years old. The tiger wasn't hurt in the battle. M.P. Milezhik, Head of Protection Department. Sincerely yours, Bolshekhetsirskiy branch of the Federal Wildlife Refuge of the Priamur'e Nature Conservation Area. ibb.co/VJrpVm4This also makes me agree with Warsaw’s opinion and Kolchin was right. Along with Ocharik (not confirmed if he actually killed him). And Mazak (Jankowski didn’t mention signs of a fight, and just found a tiger feasting on a bear carcass, and surprisingly he never even said the bears species). That’s all I know of tiger and adult male brown bears. We have known cases of tigers (adult males) dying to injured inflicted by brown bears (Bromlei). And Boris the adult male tiger almost died to a brown bear. So it’s a three year old bear. And of course a “certain poster” saw this and called it BS because reports “said it’s 18cm so it’s wrong” This email was answered to by Milezhik, who is in-charge of the reserve and the federal branch of the wildlife refuge (animal protection). I see no reason to not trust him. Why would they lie? The bear killed was named ‘Misha’ and was about three years old. Milezhik would know this due to monitoring the animals in the reserve. Actually, the bear carcass was half-eaten, and I don’t see the bear’s front paw, so maybe the tiger ate it. They measured this I’m pretty sure ibb.co/qNrR4WM which looks like a huge bear, but not only that, it looks like a fresh one. And the bear carcass is very small, and definitely doesn’t correspond with that footprint. But here’s the thing tho, they said front paw so maybe they measured the bear carcass’s front paw, but they would have to flip it over. Even in the video, everyone in the comment section is referring to the bear as ‘Misha’ The paw size is measured incorrectly, and Kolchin said this, which is why it says 18cm. I may be stupid or misinterpreting this but look: These are the brown bears footprints ibb.co/WD5tyXNThere’s 5 toes. Tiger ibb.co/r4QxLxPibb.co/gFpxNzsibb.co/5XQ6NZGFour toes, and the declaw does not touch the ground while walking. This would explain the 18cm. So the bear is small, yes. Also, I found this (hopefully it loads) www.researchgate.net/publication/311948285_Bear_footprints_and_their_use_for_monitoring_and_estimating_numbers_of_brown_bears_Ursus_arctos_L_in_BulgariaThe truth is coming out now.
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 9:24:11 GMT -5
Thank you Granolah. (the site about bear footprints loads fine) So, the truth comes out. Funny thing is, according to the tiger fanboys, there was a long-lasting battle between the adult male tiger, Odyr, and the three-year old, adolescent, undernourished, male brown bear. Quote; So it’s a three year old bear. And of course a “certain poster” saw this and called it BS because reports “said it’s 18cm so it’s wrong” *Note: It was also stated that the bear tracks did not match the small paws of the dead bear. So, the bear killed was a 3 year old adolescent bear named Misha. No surprise. This is the normal size of bears killed by tigers.
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 9:30:12 GMT -5
1- W.J. Jankowski report (1943) remains unconfirmed by biologists. The hunter Jankowski found the tiger feeding on an old bear carcass. Not even the species of the bear was confirmed. Jankowski had no way of knowing the cause of the bear's death. 2- Batalov event (2017) remains unconfirmed by biologists. This is really ridiculous. This big brown bear disappears from his usual domain, which is not unusual for a male brown bear, and the tiger fans call this evidence that this tiger killed the bear. There was no dead bear; there was no kill site. There was nothing. The bear likely moved on due to the human hunters with rifles who had just recently moved into the area. 3- Khabarovsk Territory event (2022) remains unconfirmed by biologists. The huge male brown bear turns out to be a three-year-old adolescent and maybe the tiger killed him. Small brown bears of this age group are the tiger's most common brown bear prey choice. _________________________________________________________________________________ *Edit and add; back well over a decade ago, when it was first posted on AVA, about Dale/Misha killing a large bear, the tiger fanboys were all celebrating that Dale/Misha had fought and killed a huge male brown bear double his own weight. That story lasted for maybe a week or two before the word got out that the tiger has killed a brown she-bear who weighed 440 pounds; almost as heavy as the tiger. But then, in more recent years, we learn that there were several estimates made of the she-bear. Dale had recently been weighed at 445 pounds. The she-bear weighed somewhere between 330 and 440 pounds. Bottom line; there was nothing unusual about that incident. Dale had ambushed and killed a brown she-bear smaller than himself. As of this date of 1/11/2023, there remains no confirmed event of a tiger ever killing a mature adult male brown bear. Even though the truth eventually shows itself, the tiger fanboys (including the fake professors) continue to post their lies.
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2023 9:31:39 GMT -5
So the "huge brown bear" was a 3y/o subadult? Lol, I expected nothing less. A 3y/o male brown bear is about the same size as an average adult female brown bear but in my eyes p4p less impressive as his skull, forelimbs and overall girth isn't fully developed as well as the experience to fight off rivals. An adult female brown bear is definitely more impressive than a subadult male brown bear of the same size. Agreed.
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