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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 3:23:39 GMT -5
Hypothetical. Lets say that over 15,000 to 30,000 of these bears were brought back into existence with the use of highly advanced technology. How can they survive in Africa's current conditions? Relatively the same? Some differences? How would this bear survive in North Africa? *Note: the member who was deleted by accident who started this topic is my old friend, malikc6.
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Post by brobear on Apr 7, 2018 4:44:45 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with conditions in modern-day North Africa. The Barbary lion is no longer there. That's a tragedy, but would be good news for the bear.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 8:24:14 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with conditions in modern-day North Africa. The Barbary lion is no longer there. That's a tragedy, but would be good news for the bear. From what I have read about the Atlas bear, this animal was for the most part, herbivorous, but it could get up to 1000+, although I don't know the 'average' weight of an Atlas bear. It's very likely it's digestive system could take in meat, almost like a superior panda bear. In any case, the Barbary lion and the African leopard were predators of these bears, but considering the sizes of these bears, I'd imagine it was similar to how it is in Siberia with tiger bear interactions. Preying on cubs and females. At least one on one. Multiple lions on the other hand... I'd imagine since there's no longer Barbary lions, their numbers would grow rather comfortably with the only true predator being the Nile Crocodile if the bear was too close to the water. Assuming these species was protected from poachers, I think they would be a rather successful species. I also suspect that they would quickly become omnivorous, but that's just me.
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Post by brobear on Apr 7, 2018 8:55:00 GMT -5
Most "information" on the Atlas bear is mere speculation. The last captive zoo Atlas bears perished back during the early 1800s and no one had taken the time to do any real studies on the morphology of this only living African bear. As for size, color, claw-size, etc., I believe all this was noted by the last survivors killed by hunters. It is pretty much accepted by most experts that the Atlas bear was almost certainly a subspecies of grizzly. As we all know, grizzlies can vary greatly in size, color, and habits. www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/species/u/ursus-arctos-crowtheri-atlas-bear.html Ursus arctos crowtheri a.k.a. Atlas bear, Atlas brown bear Name: Ursus arctos crowtheri. Phonetic: Ur-sus ark-tos krow-fe-ree. Named By: Heinrich Rudolf Schinz - 1844. Classification: Chordata, Mammalia, Carnivora, Ursidae. Species: U. arctos crowtheri. Diet: Herbivore/omnivore? Size: No larger than a black bear, which are known to range from 120-200 centimetres long, 10-105 centimetres high at the shoulder. Known locations: The Atlas Mountains of north Africa. Especially well known from Morocco. Time period: Holocene, possibly going extinct at some point in the late nineteenth century. Fossil representation: Numerous fossils. Records exist of living bears. The Atlas bear (Ursus arctos crowtheri) is today considered to be an extinct sub species of the brown bear (Ursus arctos); although some researchers think that it should be treated as a distinct species in its own right. The Atlas bear seems to have been the last of the African bears (Agriotherium and Indarctos lived much earlier), and the only one so far known to have been naturally exclusive to the African continent. Though a relative of the huge brown bear, the Atlas bear is actually noted as being smaller than the black bear (Ursus americanus). The coat of long ten to twelve centimetre long hair was a dark brown almost black on top, but red-orange underneath. Both snout and claws are reported as being proportionately shorter than the black bear. The Atlas bear seems to have been mostly herbivorous with reports suggesting it fed upon the more nutritious parts of plants such as roots, nuts and even acorns. However as a group bears are noted as being omnivorous, and while many have a predilection towards one kind of food over another, Atlas bears would have likely been biologically capable of eating meat as well. As with far too many animals the Atlas bear seems to have gone extinct entirely from human contact, especially from such activities as trapping and hunting. The atlas bear was known to the Romans, who according to historical reports, captured large numbers of these bears to fight in gladiatorial arenas, either against professional hunters, or pitted against criminals that were punished by being thrown to wild animals. Some Roman mosaics also depict creatures which may well represent Atlas bears. In 1830 the king of Morocco had at least one Atlas bear living in captivity and also that year supplied a bear to the Zoological garden of Marseille which then became the holotype of the species. The last Atlas bear to be killed by hunters is often reported to have been killed in 1870 in the Tetuan Mountains. Today the Atlas bear is officially recorded as being extinct, probably disappearing in the late nineteenth century. Despite this however, sightings of bear-like animals are sometimes reported in regions where the Atlas bear used to live, with some speculating that it maybe the mythical ‘Nandi bear’. Unfortunately however, no bodies or other evidence (hair, scat, dens, etc.) of still living bears have so far been found. Assuming that the sightings are genuine, then it’s possible that they could simply be cases of mistaken identity.
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Post by brobear on Apr 7, 2018 9:07:42 GMT -5
Quote from post above: In 1830 the king of Morocco had at least one Atlas bear living in captivity and also that year supplied a bear to the Zoological garden of Marseille which then became the holotype of the species. *Note: So our modern description of the Atlas bear, it would seem, comes from the one individual bear given to the Zoological garden of Marseille. It is very likely that a young sub-adult or even a cub was delivered there. If they fed this bear, as was typical in zoos at the time, on a vegetarian diet, then he might have grew to be smaller than his wild brothers and sisters. There were no naturalists during the early 19th century do any scientific research on animal behavior. Therefore, how would they know that Atlas bears were vegetarian in the wild? Also, as for his short claws, it is possible that a hard cement or stone floor in his enclosure might have influenced the bear's claw length. So many possibilities.
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Post by brobear on Apr 7, 2018 11:19:36 GMT -5
I believe that if Mexican grizzlies had been introduced into Africa, or perhaps Gobi grizzlies, they would survive in all but the sand-desert regions of Africa ( if people would not kill them off ). Out in the African bush, among other food resources the bears would take full advantage of beehives and termite mounds. The warthog would likely become a common grizzly prey animal. I believe that the leopards, wild dogs, and hyenas would soon learn to show the grizzly the same respect they have for a male lion. As for lions, the grizzly would learn to avoid them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 19:37:42 GMT -5
I believe that if Mexican grizzlies had been introduced into Africa, or perhaps Gobi grizzlies, they would survive in all but the sand-desert regions of Africa ( if people would not kill them off ). Out in the African bush, among other food resources the bears would take full advantage of beehives and termite mounds. The warthog would likely become a common grizzly prey animal. I believe that the leopards, wild dogs, and hyenas would soon learn to show the grizzly the same respect they have for a male lion. As for lions, the grizzly would learn to avoid them. Aside from this hypothetical, do you think it is necessary to introduce these bears to Africa? And yes I see the warthog being a common prey item as well for the bear. I could see some bears even preying on the Nile Crocodile when the reptile is on land, but learn to respect it when it's in the water. Wild dogs and Striped hyenas would likely be treated the same as wolves, and hyenas are easier to intimidate than wolves are. That could actually be a massive advantage when it comes to stealing kills. The leopard would treat the bear as another lion in the sense that it would have to quickly drag its prey up a tree to prevent it from usurping its kill. Here's a question for you. Do you see Hippopotamus potentially being a prey item?
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Post by Polar on Apr 7, 2018 21:09:36 GMT -5
I see it very possible to introduce any kind of bear in Africa (except polar bear, obviously), and can see them being either omnivorous or more vegetarian/insectivore like the sun bear, but the bears might disturb the local lion domination in the continent. Both would be wary and sort-of scared to encounter each other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 21:42:25 GMT -5
I see it very possible to introduce any kind of bear in Africa (except polar bear, obviously), and can see them being either omnivorous or more vegetarian/insectivore like the sun bear, but the bears might disturb the local lion domination in the continent. Both would be wary and sort-of scared to encounter each other. Because of the higher variety of meat, I see them definitely becoming omnivorous. Do you think the hippo is a potential prey item as well as crocodiles on land? And yes they would definitely try to avoid lions, especially multiple of them. I can see some of the bears stalking lone lions to steal their kills, similar to grizzlies doing this to Siberian tigers.
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Post by brobear on Apr 8, 2018 2:39:47 GMT -5
The pachyderms, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, and elephant are all too big and powerful for any bear. Even the biggest fiercest grizzly would carefully avoid them. The hippo would be particularly dangerous to the bear. I can't see a grizzly risking life and limb attacking an adult Nile crocodile on land or water. Bear's generally look for an easy meal. They would however very likely learn to search for crocodile eggs. I started this in reference to finding a replacement-bear for the Atlas bear. Both the Mexican and the Gobi are bears which can deal with the African sun ( although the Mexican grizzly is now extinct ). Grizzlies are highly adaptable, but I would choose carefully the subspecies. Sloth bears or sun bears could be introduced into the African Congo, but this would serve no purpose unless it was to add to the bear's numbers. Grizzlies would avoid lions. Where there is one, there are usually more nearby. The grizzly would learn this. A grizzly might dig up a few Aardvarks and burrowing rodents. Baboons would have to be on the alert. Giraffes would probably be ignored. A dangerous place for a grizzly would be the rivers. Crocodiles and hippos; this could be the bear's greatest threat other than poachers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 3:07:30 GMT -5
The pachyderms, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, and elephant are all too big and powerful for any bear. Even the biggest fiercest grizzly would carefully avoid them. The hippo would be particularly dangerous to the bear. I can't see a grizzly risking life and limb attacking an adult Nile crocodile on land or water. Bear's generally look for an easy meal. They would however very likely learn to search for crocodile eggs. I started this in reference to finding a replacement-bear for the Atlas bear. Both the Mexican and the Gobi are bears which can deal with the African sun ( although the Mexican grizzly is now extinct ). Grizzlies are highly adaptable, but I would choose carefully the subspecies. Sloth bears or sun bears could be introduced into the African Congo, but this would serve no purpose unless it was to add to the bear's numbers. Grizzlies would avoid lions. Where there is one, there are usually more nearby. The grizzly would learn this. A grizzly might dig up a few Aardvarks and burrowing rodents. Baboons would have to be on the alert. Giraffes would probably be ignored. A dangerous place for a grizzly would be the rivers. Crocodiles and hippos; this could be the bear's greatest threat other than poachers. Oh most definitely an elephant is way too much for any bear, but I asked if hippos could be potential prey. I'd imagine smaller hippos falling prey, but obviously not a full grown hippo. That goes without saying.I however can see a bear preying on a crocodile (unless it's considerably heavier and heavier) on land, just like lions occasionally do. In the water, most definitely not. Yes Giraffes would likely be avoided if full grown, with young ones potentially being in the bear's menu.
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Post by brobear on Apr 8, 2018 3:17:52 GMT -5
As for sloth bears or sun bears in the Congo; the only large predator in the African Congo ( the tropical rain-forest ) is the leopard. No large crocodiles in the Congo river. No big pythons. Chimps, gorillas, and mandrills would learn to keep a safe distance from a sloth bear. The bear would never run out of termites and ants. A leopard would seldom find a chance to grab a sloth bear cub as they are usually upon the bear's back. Sun bears spend most of their time in the tree-tops and in the Congo lots of trees. Sun bears have little trouble with leopards. I don't think a chimp would mess with a sun bear more than once.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 3:22:37 GMT -5
As for sloth bears or sun bears in the Congo; the only large predator in the African Congo ( the tropical rain-forest ) is the leopard. No large crocodiles in the Congo river. No big pythons. Chimps, gorillas, and mandrills would learn to keep a safe distance from a sloth bear. The bear would never run out of termites and ants. A leopard would seldom find a chance to grab a sloth bear cub as they are usually upon the bear's back. Sun bears spend most of their time in the tree-tops and in the Congo lots of trees. Sun bears have little trouble with leopards. I don't think a chimp would mess with a sun bear more than once. Sloth bears can be incredibly aggressive. Do you think the sloth bear would see the primates both chimp and gorilla as prey?
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Post by brobear on Apr 8, 2018 3:26:29 GMT -5
The largest hog species lives in Africa. Largest as a species, although the Russian wild boar is even bigger. Average wild boar overall is smaller. www.ultimateungulate.com/artiodactyla/hylochoerus_meinertzhageni.html The forest hog is the largest wild pig species. Males are always larger in size, often weighing 50 kg more than females. Eastern populations also tend to be larger than those from West Africa: male western forest hogs (H. m. ivoriensis) typically weigh no more than 150 kg, while male giant forest hogs (H. m. meinertzhageni) may tip the scales at over 225 kg. Adults of both sexes are black or very dark brown. Long but sparse hair covers the body; down the midline of the back, very long bristles (up to 17 cm) form a mane that is raised when excited. There are no markings. The faces of forest hogs are very distinctive: the nasal disc is exceptionally large (up to 16 cm across), and males develop large naked swellings beneath their eyes. Both sexes have sharp tusk-like canine teeth (those of females are much smaller). In males, the tusks flare outwards with a slight upward curve; the maximum recorded length is 35.9 cm. The ears are not tufted.
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Post by brobear on Apr 8, 2018 3:30:59 GMT -5
Sloth bears are defensively aggressive. They are not predators. Sloth bears would be feeding mostly on brood insects and some fruits. Apes and bears would simply learn to keep their distance from each other. I believe that the bears in the Congo would be practically free from natural predation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 3:48:17 GMT -5
A python if it ever encountered a bear of nearly species, in my opinion would be looked at as potential prey. I'd imagine that the bear would learn to target the snakes head and quickly kill it, and have a decent dinner.
I can see chimps being looked at as prey due to their inability to correctly fight back against such an animal. Thin skin close to the muscle means incredibly easy to bite and cut. They often have trouble killing each other despite their high levels of physical strength, and they flail and bite mindlessly. A chimpanzee couldn't fight off a Sloth bear (or even a sun bear) for very long. Although Sloth bears aren't purely hunters and like you said, feed on insects, fruits, and carrion, I feel that if the bear realized that the chimpanzee isn't a hard animal to kill and relatively easy to chase down (25 miles per hour when sprinting on four legs), they would eventually land on their menu. In short, if it's easy prey, I can see them becoming food.
Gorillas on the other hand... yes I can see the bears leaving them be. I support a Sloth bear over a gorilla, but it wouldn't be worth the fight for the bear.
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Post by brobear on Apr 8, 2018 4:13:47 GMT -5
Sloth bears are not predators. They would not be hunting. Chimpanzees, on the other hand, are predators. But chimps do not hunt anything the size of a bear. I believe that there would be mutual avoidance between apes and bears. I posted about the big wild hogs, but they too ( IMO ) would pose no threat to the bears. I have watched documentaries about life in the African jungles. What people hate the most are the bugs... tons of biting insects on the ground and in the air. A sloth bear would never starve to death. He would probably be an asset to the environment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 4:36:41 GMT -5
Sloth bears are not predators. They would not be hunting. Chimpanzees, on the other hand, are predators. But chimps do not hunt anything the size of a bear. I believe that there would be mutual avoidance between apes and bears. I posted about the big wild hogs, but they too ( IMO ) would pose no threat to the bears. I have watched documentaries about life in the African jungles. What people hate the most are the bugs... tons of biting insects on the ground and in the air. A sloth bear would never starve to death. He would probably be an asset to the environment. So if anything, the sloth bear would benefit people and animals by eating up the insects that pester them. Sloth bears aren't like black bears or grizzly bears in terms of hunting, this is true, but it was more along the lines of an animal being rather vulnerable to attack. Look at the case of pigs and dodos. While pigs aren't exactly hunters, when they realized that the dodo wasn't very fast and overall had little fear of predators and no defense, they were seen as easy food. Sloth bears also feed on carrion, so their digestive system is easily capable of taking in meat. Another hypothesis is that it is theorized that one of the main reasons why Sloth bears attack humans, is because they see humans as potential predators. If this is true, then a chimpanzee (or even a gorilla) could potentially be looked at as threats, and attacked with vicious ferocity. I'd imagine that this behavior can eventually turn into that of a predator when they bear realizes that chimps just like humans, cannot put up a decent defense against such a creature. Sloth bears likely view humans as potential predators, as their reactions to them (roaring, followed by retreat or charging) are similar to those evoked in the presence of tigers and leopards.[11] Their long claws, ideally adapted for digging at termite mounds, make adults less capable of climbing trees to escape danger, as are other bears such as Asian black bears. Therefore, sloth bears have seemingly evolved to deal with threats by behaving aggressively. For the same reason, brown bears can be similarly inclined, accounting for the relatively high incidence of seemingly nonpredatory aggression towards humans in these two bear species.[37] According to Robert Armitage Sterndale, in his Mammalia of India (1884, p. 62): [The sloth bear] is also more inclined to attack man unprovoked than almost any other animal, and casualties inflicted by it are unfortunately very common, the victim being often terribly disfigured even if not killed, as the bear strikes at the head and face. Blanford was inclined to consider bears more dangerous than tigers... If they didn't prey on the apes but simply attacked them when feeling threatened, at the very least, the bear would likely eat the dead opponent. This is in the end just a simple hypothesis and you can very well be right about the apes and bears just staying away from one another. With a high insect population, it would be a rather pleasant time for old Slothy.
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Post by brobear on Apr 8, 2018 6:04:57 GMT -5
The experts believe that sloth bears evolved from early brown bears; thus they have retained the "grizzly" habit of "stand your ground" rather than scurry up a tree. Their attacks are likely triggered by a mixture of fear and anger when they are disturbed. A sloth bear always attacks the face of his targeted interloper, thus even a tiger prefers not to push a fight. Quote from Wiki: The fossilized skulls of a bear once named Melursus theobaldi found in the Shivaliks from the early Pleistocene or early Pliocene are thought by certain authors to represent an intermediate stage between sloth bears and ancestral brown bears.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 9:44:12 GMT -5
The experts believe that sloth bears evolved from early brown bears; thus they have retained the "grizzly" habit of "stand your ground" rather than scurry up a tree. Their attacks are likely triggered by a mixture of fear and anger when they are disturbed. A sloth bear always attacks the face of his targeted interloper, thus even a tiger prefers not to push a fight. Quote from Wiki: The fossilized skulls of a bear once named Melursus theobaldi found in the Shivaliks from the early Pleistocene or early Pliocene are thought by certain authors to represent an intermediate stage between sloth bears and ancestral brown bears. How do you think the American Black bear would do in North Africa?
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