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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 19, 2022 15:41:52 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. Isn’t a Kodiak bear much bigger and should win more than 6-7/10 times?
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Sept 19, 2022 15:57:03 GMT -5
They are much bigger, but then again there is an account of a lion killing a sick 900 lb russian brown bear while having 2 revolver shots in its face.
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2022 23:01:11 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. If you were to take a picture straight down from above of the jaguar and compare it to a similar picture of the Andean bear, then you would see the bear's great advantage in girth. You are welcome to believe that a jaguar is stronger than a bear if you wish, but you will never convince me of that idea. Here is a typical healthy tiger from above:
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2022 23:15:53 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. My own estimate of an Ussuri brown bear against an Amur tiger (both full-grown males) in a face-to-face confrontation, is 19-out-of-20 for the bear. I would give the Kodiak bear the same estimate against either a big African lion or Bengal tiger. There is always the possibility of a fluke - the big cat getting lucky and slashing with his claws or teeth an artery in the bear's face. Jaguar vs Andean bear; I've never viewed a video of an Andean bear fight. These bears are terribly under-studied. But, I have no reason to believe that they fight any different that other bears, meaning that they are exceptional wrestlers. I would give this bear no less than 6-out-of-10 over the jaguar. Of course, these number are pure speculation/personal opinion.
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2022 23:34:10 GMT -5
Andean bear - domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/966/physical-description They have a stocky build, small round ears, a thick short neck, and a stout muzzle. Like all bears, spectacled bears are equipped with a plantigrade stance and the front limbs are longer than their hind limbs. This feature of the limbs gives most bears amazing climbing abilities. Relative to their body size, spectacled bears have the largest zygomaticomandibularis muscle of any bear species.
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2022 23:47:08 GMT -5
Comparison between a North American cougar and a spectacled bear.
Clearly, the bear has greater girth.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 20, 2022 2:08:27 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. My own estimate of an Ussuri brown bear against an Amur tiger (both full-grown males) in a face-to-face confrontation, is 19-out-of-20 for the bear. I would give the Kodiak bear the same estimate against either a big African lion or Bengal tiger. There is always the possibility of a fluke - the big cat getting lucky and slashing with his claws or teeth an artery in the bear's face. Jaguar vs Andean bear; I've never viewed a video of an Andean bear fight. These bears are terribly under-studied. But, I have no reason to believe that they fight any different that other bears, meaning that they are exceptional wrestlers. I would give this bear no less than 6-out-of-10 over the jaguar. Of course, these number are pure speculation/personal opinion. Do you think the bespectacled tiger killing Chamlid account could be a fluke by any chance or do you call it purely unconfirmed?
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Post by brobear on Sept 20, 2022 3:29:56 GMT -5
My own estimate of an Ussuri brown bear against an Amur tiger (both full-grown males) in a face-to-face confrontation, is 19-out-of-20 for the bear. I would give the Kodiak bear the same estimate against either a big African lion or Bengal tiger. There is always the possibility of a fluke - the big cat getting lucky and slashing with his claws or teeth an artery in the bear's face. Jaguar vs Andean bear; I've never viewed a video of an Andean bear fight. These bears are terribly under-studied. But, I have no reason to believe that they fight any different that other bears, meaning that they are exceptional wrestlers. I would give this bear no less than 6-out-of-10 over the jaguar. Of course, these number are pure speculation/personal opinion. Do you think the bespectacled tiger killing Chamlid account could be a fluke by any chance or do you call it purely unconfirmed? There is O evidence of that tiger killing Chamlid. That story is dead in the water. The tiger fanboys, in their desperation, will rally at every suggested story of a tiger killing a bear. But, thus far, we have no confirmed account of a tiger killing a full-grown male brown bear nor any bear species larger than the tiger himself. In fact, the fanboys are still cheering for the W.J. Jankowski (in Mazak, 1983) story. Jankowski was a hunter. He showed pictures of a very large tiger he had shot. According to him (his story) the tiger was feeding upon the remains of a large male brown bear he had killed. He went on to say that only the head and paws remained of the bear. He also estimated his tiger at 300 kg (661 lbs) which would be the record tiger if it had been confirmed. *Note: This hunter had very likely never actually weighed a tiger. So, his estimate could not be taken seriously. Also note, with only the head and paws remaining, the bears carcass was an old carcass. If there was a bear carcass there (remember we are talking about a hunter), the most likely scenario is that the tiger found those remains. In any case, this story remains unconfirmed.
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Post by yz on Sept 20, 2022 7:19:03 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. A kodiak woud win 10/10 against a lion or tiger. We are talking about a bear pound per pound stronger and more durable than either cat with a weight advantage of at least 120-150 kg . How would a lion/tiger have some slim chances of winning against such a bear ? At parity , it is possible but against a bear with such weight advantage ? Nah
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Post by yz on Sept 20, 2022 7:23:17 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. Isn’t a Kodiak bear much bigger and should win more than 6-7/10 times? There is a scientific account of a male tiger that ambushed a 200 kg she bear and merely managed to kill it after a 20 min long struggle so obviously a tiger wouldn't do much against male 350 kg average kodiak in a face to face confrontation. These types of match ups shouldn't be debatable. Anyone who believes a lion or tiger would have some chance against a 350 kg bruin is an utter fool.
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Sept 20, 2022 8:16:32 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. If you were to take a picture straight down from above of the jaguar and compare it to a similar picture of the Andean bear, then you would see the bear's great advantage in girth. You are welcome to believe that a jaguar is stronger than a bear if you wish, but you will never convince me of that idea. Here is a typical healthy tiger from above: The girth could indeed be fat and fur brobear, even if we say that it isn't the jaguars agility and bite force would edge it the win by biting the Andean bear in the skull. Or the neck. or anything.
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Post by brobear on Sept 20, 2022 8:20:08 GMT -5
Isn’t a Kodiak bear much bigger and should win more than 6-7/10 times? There is a scientific account of a male tiger that ambushed a 200 kg she bear and merely managed to kill it after a 20 min long struggle so obviously a tiger wouldn't do much against male 350 kg average kodiak in a face to face confrontation. These types of match ups shouldn't be debatable. Anyone who believes a lion or tiger would have some chance against a 350 kg bruin is an utter fool. Quote: A kodiak woud win 10/10 against a lion or tiger. We are talking about a bear pound per pound stronger and more durable than either cat with a weight advantage of at least 120-150 kg . How would a lion/tiger have some slim chances of winning against such a bear ? At parity , it is possible but against a bear with such weight advantage ? Nah *As I explained, I give the lion or tiger 1-out-of-20 because sometimes the seemingly impossible does occur, such as the case of a leopard killing a lion. As for the tiger (M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha) killing the 200 kg (440 lbs) brown she-bear; No, this was not confirmed. The tiger weighed over 445 pounds, but the she-bear was never weighed. The estimates of those who witnessed ranged from 330 to 440 pounds. You can average this out to an estimated 385 pounds.
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Sept 20, 2022 8:20:52 GMT -5
I still believe a jaguars muscle, bite force and agility will edge it the slight win or a draw over the Andean bear. I actually also believe a kodiak bear would win only 7/10 times with a tiger and 6/10 times with a lion. My own estimate of an Ussuri brown bear against an Amur tiger (both full-grown males) in a face-to-face confrontation, is 19-out-of-20 for the bear. I would give the Kodiak bear the same estimate against either a big African lion or Bengal tiger. There is always the possibility of a fluke - the big cat getting lucky and slashing with his claws or teeth an artery in the bear's face. Jaguar vs Andean bear; I've never viewed a video of an Andean bear fight. These bears are terribly under-studied. But, I have no reason to believe that they fight any different that other bears, meaning that they are exceptional wrestlers. I would give this bear no less than 6-out-of-10 over the jaguar. Of course, these number are pure speculation/personal opinion. I don't know brobear. I think big cats are being heavily underestimated here.
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Sept 20, 2022 8:22:11 GMT -5
Actually how about we move to another thread? This is getting off topic.
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Post by brobear on Sept 20, 2022 8:28:53 GMT -5
Quote: "I don't know brobear. I think big cats are being heavily underestimated here." The full-grown male brown bear has some awesome advantages. (especially no.#19)
Big Cat vs Brown Bear:
1- Speed: The running speed of a brown bear is 30mph. Reportedly, in a short dash, a brown bear might reach roughly 40 mph. The running speed of a lion or tiger is ( correct me if I'm wrong ) 35 mph. In that short burst of speed used in executing an ambush attack, lions and tigers have been estimated at reaching somewhere between 50 and 60 mph.
2- Quickness: I consider this as being different from speed. Example: A cheetah can run faster than a leopard but I'm pretty sure that a leopard is quicker in a fight. A brown bear is not slow but I believe that a big cat is just a little quicker.
3- Agility: A brown bear is far more agile that an observer would expect him to be for such a heavy-built animal. But, a cat is a contortionist. He can twist and turn almost as if he has a reptilian spine.
4- Jaws and teeth: At size-parity ( which means equal HB length ) a big cat has stronger jaws than a brown bear. This does not mean that the bear has a weak bite. Lions and tigers both have longer canine teeth than a brown bear. However, the bear's teeth are thick and deeply rooted; great for brawling.
5- Power: A big cat ( as I understand it ) has more explosive energy than the brown bear - for a limited amount of time.
6- Pull-Strength: This does not mean that a lion or a tiger can outmatch a brown bear in a tug-o-war contest. The big cat has more pull-strength in his arms than the bear. This pull-strength is aided by his deeply-hooked retractable claws. This strength is used to pull down large prey such as a buffalo.
7- Experience: This advantage clearly depends on each individual animal. Lion vs tiger; in some cases the lion might have more experience, while in another confrontation, the tiger might have more fighting experience. Same holds true with big cat vs bear.
8- Claws: The claws of a cat are sharper due to the fact that they are retractable. A big cat's claws are deeply hooked for the purpose of holding onto a large prey animal so as to pull him down. On the flip side, those deeply hooked claws can get caught in the tough hide of his prey or adversary, just as the claws of a house cat often gets hung-up on padded furniture in a house. This can be a major disadvantage in a fight. The claws of a brown bear are long with a shallower curve. Although less sharp than the claws of a big cat, they are sharp enough to do considerable damage, much like the long claws of an unclipped dog.
9- Aggressiveness: Here again, this advantage goes to the individual. In some cases the lion, in some cases the tiger, and in some cases the bear.
10- Quick Reflexes: All three of these magnificent predators have superb reflexes.
11- Size and Weight: The average brown bear is larger and heavier than the average lion or tiger. The max brown bear is larger and heavier than the max lion or tiger.
12- Strength and Leverage: The brown bear has far superior over-all strength than any big cat. Because of his broader build ( feet further apart ) and shorter back, the brown bear has superior leverage.
13- Grappling Ability: A bear has a greater range of motion in his arms ( fore-limbs ). Plus, bear cubs constantly play-wrestle while kittens play-ambush. 14- Intelligence: Bears are grouped among the smartest of mammals along with the great apes, elephants, and Cetaceans. Although the measuring of animal intelligence is not a fool-proof science, many biologists and animal trainers agree.
15- Bipedal Ability: Big cats often start a fight on their hind legs delivering paw swipes. Not even a great ape has greater bipedal ability than a bear.
16- Stamina: A cat has poor stamina due to roughly 20 million years of ambush predation. A brown bear has very good stamina. Doug Peacock once observed a grizzly running 10 miles non-stop, after which he remained active.
17- Endurance to Pain and Injury: There is no way to prove who has this advantage. Any experimentation would include animal cruelty. But, from my reading of the grizzly; the brown bear certainly has my vote.
18- Paw-Strike: To my knowledge, the force of the paw-strike of the lion, the tiger, and the brown bear has never been scientifically measured. However, considering that at size-parity ( equal HB length ) the bear is stronger, the bear has a greater range of motion in his arms, and the brown bear in particular has a shoulder hump of muscles which reinforces his upper-body strength above that of other bear species at equal size, there remains no lingering doubt that the brown bear wins this contest.
19- Durability / Girth: Being broader in build with more fat and muscle covering his inner vitals, the bear has this one. Brown Bear's overall more robust bone structure would provide good resistance to the big Cats ' bites and paw swipes.
20- "Bulldog Build": There is a reason why among dogs, the bull-breeds are the fiercest fighters. Like a bulldog, a bear has a broad build which gives the impression of a short back. His slightly bowed legs and in-turned feet provides a superior grip ( bear hug ).
21- Plantigrade Posture: Being firmly planted on the ground rather than standing on his tippy-toes adds to the bear's superior stability.
22- Stability: Besides his plantigrade posture, the broad heavy build of the bear with his feet spaced apart makes him harder to knock down. We could compare a dining room table ( bear ) to a park bench ( lion or tiger ).
23- Tiny Eyes: A brown bear has relatively tiny eyes; a more difficult target.
24- Shoulder Hump ( reinforces upper-body strength ): this is why pound-for-pound, the brown bear is the strongest of bears.
25- Push Strength: While the big cat has superior pull strength, a bear has greater push strength.
26- Willingness to Fight Face-to-Face: This is a major advantage. Big cats are specialist predators - they are ambush predators. A big cat hates a face-to-face confrontation. This is the reason a big male tiger will most often walk away from even a female sloth bear when she musters-up the courage to stand her ground in defense. This is why a man is safe in tiger country when he wears a face mask on the back of his head. This is why lions will not attack cattle who has eyes painted onto their hind-quarters. This is the reason for the big V on the chest of the smaller Asiatic bears ( sun bear, sloth bear, and moon bear ).
A brown bear will go head-on against prey or adversary with no reluctance.
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Sept 20, 2022 8:46:44 GMT -5
This wouldn't apply to jaguar vs spectacled bear (most of it) and well The only real reason I have this support for lions and tigers vs bears is because the accounts. If you were to say those accounts have a possibility of not being true, then so would the bear killing tiger/lion accounts. Even more possibility for the bear killing lion and tiger accounts to be untrue since they are so vague. More suspicious than lion/tiger killing bear accounts.
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Post by brobear on Sept 20, 2022 9:14:39 GMT -5
This wouldn't apply to jaguar vs spectacled bear (most of it) and well The only real reason I have this support for lions and tigers vs bears is because the accounts. If you were to say those accounts have a possibility of not being true, then so would the bear killing tiger/lion accounts. Even more possibility for the bear killing lion and tiger accounts to be untrue since they are so vague. More suspicious than lion/tiger killing bear accounts. Any 'animal fight' story published in newspapers dating from the 19th century thru to the mid-twentieth century is questionable. This regardless of what animals are involved. So, yes, bear killing lion or tiger included. I'm not showing favoritism here. Those old newspapers relied on sensationalism to sell their papers against heavy competition. The more exciting the stories, the more papers got sold. Remember that most of these years predates movies and television. I'm sure that some tales were true, some exaggerated, and some simply a product of a newspaper reporter's imagination.
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Sept 20, 2022 9:40:22 GMT -5
Actually this now reminds me... since alot of sources say bears beat lions and tigers in roman arenas and they are actually trustable and confirmed sources...that means that bears actually have more accounts against lions and tigers!
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Post by brobear on Sept 20, 2022 10:01:12 GMT -5
Actually this now reminds me... since alot of sources say bears beat lions and tigers in roman arenas and they are actually trustable and confirmed sources...that means that bears actually have more accounts against lions and tigers! True. In fact; we once had a great many stories posted of "captive fights" -probably just about all- and yes, the great majority of those printed stories place the bear as the winner. "THE BEAR - History of a Fallen King - by Michel Pastoureau" can be trusted as a reliable source. I believe that over-all, big cats do poorly against bears. For one thing, why would most of those old tales place the bear on top? It wasn't because bears were popular. Also, when I watch a female sloth bear drive away a male Bengal tiger better than double her own weight... well, that tells me something. I have also watched a video of a lion in a confrontation with a moon bear. The bear stood his ground while the lion was constantly seeking an escape route.
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Post by skibidibopmmdada on Sept 20, 2022 10:11:52 GMT -5
Oh yea the lioness vs moon bear video, the bears face got a little bloodied but he actually played a kill bite on the lioness, tooth in the skull. So moon bear vs lioness goes to moon bear?
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