Face-Off / Ambush / Chase and Catch

[brobear]

When we stop sugar-coating the truth and lay down all of the facts on the table, this is the honest truth: "There is this one beast among all of the order Carnivora that a big cat in unable to defeat in a fair fight - the bear - sub-family Ursinae - and especially Ursus arctos.

The big cat fanboys are in complete denial of this truth. They want so badly for their chosen big cat to be the best fighter within the order Carnivora. The ability to man-up to the truth separates the men from the boys. In this case, it separates the big cat enthusiasts from the big cat fanboys. Yes, there are a great many big cat enthusiasts who have embraced the truth. 
 
Edit and add: I in no way mean this as an insult to the lion which I would consider the dominant Carnivoran if they lived among tigers and brown bears. They are big powerful cats who live and hunt in groups. Among the advantages one can have in a fight, numbers is the top advantage one can have. 
Neither do I in any way mean this as an insult to the tiger whom I consider to be the greatest single land-based predator on earth. In am ambush attack, he can kill the biggest bull bovine on earth.

[King Kodiak]

ULLAS KARANTH, DIRECTOR FOR SCIENCE-ASIA AT THE WILDLIFE CONSERVATION SOCIETY

"After examining hundreds of tiger kills, I had concluded that all successful gaur hunts would begin with the tiger launching a lateral sneak attack"


blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/12/03/rare-video-captures-tiger-making-its-kill/

[tom]

Jun 1, 2020 3:58:54 GMT -5 brobear said:

When we stop sugar-coating the truth and lay down all of the facts on the table, this is the honest truth: "There is this one beast among all of the order Carnivora that a big cat in unable to defeat in a fair fight - the bear - sub-family Ursinae - and especially Ursus arctos.

The big cat fanboys are in complete denial of this truth. They want so badly for their chosen big cat to be the best fighter within the order Carnivora. The ability to man-up to the truth separates the men from the boys. In this case, it separates the big cat enthusiasts from the big cat fanboys. Yes, there are a great many big cat enthusiasts who have embraced the truth. 
 
Edit and add: I in no way mean this as an insult to the lion which I would consider the dominant Carnivoran if they lived among tigers and brown bears. They are big powerful cats who live and hunt in groups. Among the advantages one can have in a fight, numbers is the top advantage one can have. 
Neither do I in any way mean this as an insult to the tiger whom I consider to be the greatest single land-based predator on earth. In am ambush attack, he can kill the biggest bull bovine on earth.

The denial is so deeply ingrained that deep down they actually believe what they spew. This is why trying to debate them is futile and you basically look in the mirror and say.... why do I even get involved in discussions with them?

I like Lions as well and really enjoy watching the many documentaries on them, like Bears I find them fascinating in all aspects especially the hierarchy and family structure, which at times can be very cruel. Mother nature intended Lions to have a tough life that's for sure.
  

[brobear]

OK; we have it clearly narrowed down to three categories of killings which take place among the wild beasts of the natural world:

category 1- Face-Off - like two boxers who step into the ring and look each other in the eye.
category 2- Ambush - like a Ninja who appears unexpectedly out of the darkness and attacks his victim without warning.( not a face-off ).
category 3- Kill by Chase - like a wolf who chases the caribou. The caribou knows he is there. The wolf attacks from behind.( not a face-off ).

Every predator on earth falls within either category #2 or category #3 ...or am I missing anything? One thing for certain. Category #1 is uncommon in the natural world. But here is an example; a tiger is stalking a sloth bear but is found out. The bear spots the tiger who is stalking him. The bear has two choices, run or stand your ground. Over the course of about one-million years, the sloth bear has learned that his best chance of survival is to "stand your ground". Usually the tiger will walk away rather than risk injury in a fight. But the bear who panics and runs is almost always killed by the tiger.
Sometimes a big bull bovine will stand his ground against a lion or a tiger. When this happens, and if the big cat accepts the challenge, then we have a category #1 face-off event - very uncommon.

[King Kodiak]

Every predator on earth falls within either category #2 or category #3 ...or am I missing anything?

You mean every "ambush predator". Because bears are officially classified as "predators" but not "ambush predators" and even though sometimes they ambush, especially Barren ground grizzlies on Musk ox and polar bears on beluga whales and seals, they still use category 1 most times.

So we have:

"Ambush predators": 90% or more is category 2 and 3. Very little category 1.

"Predators" 90% or more is category 1 and 3. Very little category 2.

These are just my own estimates and opinions.

[brobear]

Listing only members of the order Carnivora:

Category 2: All cats, mustelids, skunks, mongoose and relatives.

Category 3: Canids.

There are a few exceptions among certain groups, but all cats are ambush predators. Brown bears are a mixture of both 2 and 3. Polar bears are ambush predators. A predator must catch the prey animal either by stealth or by speed and endurance.
Category #1 happens on rare occasion with category #2 and category #3 predators when the prey decides to fight rather than flee.

[King Kodiak]

Brown bears are a mixture of both 2 and 3. 

Are you saying brown bears dont use category 1 at all? Are you saying they dont hunt head on? Because most times they do. Most videos show category 1.

[brobear]

Jun 22, 2020 7:02:29 GMT -5 King Kodiak said:

Brown bears are a mixture of both 2 and 3. 

Are you saying brown bears dont use category 1 at all? Are you saying they dont hunt head on? Because most times they do. Most videos show category 1.

No predator habitually only hunts animals who do not attempt to escape. For there to be a face-off in the wild, first you must have a prey animal who does not run or scurry up a tree. This I will say though; when the prey animal stands his ground, a brown bear is ( IMO ) more apt to accept the challenge that a big cat ( lion possible exception ).

[King Kodiak]

For the ratio that brown bears and tigers hunt, there are alot more videos and accounts of brown bears hunting face to face. Also, in general, an adult male brown bear is too large and noisy to make a successful ambush.

[brobear]

Jun 22, 2020 7:46:47 GMT -5 King Kodiak said:

For the ratio that brown bears and tigers hunt, there are alot more videos and accounts of brown bears hunting face to face. Also, in general, an adult male brown bear is too large and noisy to make a successful ambush.

How exactly does a brown bear hunt face-to-face? 

[King Kodiak]

Jun 22, 2020 7:59:48 GMT -5 brobear said:

Jun 22, 2020 7:46:47 GMT -5 King Kodiak said:

For the ratio that brown bears and tigers hunt, there are alot more videos and accounts of brown bears hunting face to face. Also, in general, an adult male brown bear is too large and noisy to make a successful ambush.

How exactly does a brown bear hunt face-to-face? 

Like this: all category 1 baby:

[brobear]

First video; It was told that the caribou had some previous injury that prevented him from running. But yes, when the herbivore decides to stand and fight, a brown bear will generally provide. Second video; when the video begins, the bear and the bison are both there. The bison is ( IMO ) a sub-adult. He is alone - no bison herd. So, possibly the grizzly had chased this bison until he was too exhausted to continue running. No way to know for certain. Third: the old famous grizzly and Russian wild boar. Again, the bear already has the boar. Was it a face-off? With a wild boar - possibly. Or, perhaps a chase and catch or a catch by ambush. No way of knowing. Fourth video; the grizzly discovers a wounded moose. Or maybe, the grizzly had already caught the moose by chase and catch or by ambush. No way of knowing.

[King Kodiak]

So why are you putting cats at the same level of bears now? Did the cat boys finally get to you? Cats are officially classified as "ambush predators", and thats for a reason. Bears on the other hand, are not classified as "ambush predators" but only as "predators". You see the difference? Usually, most adult male brown bears are too large and noisy To ambush, a bear is not a cat. Me and you are definitely not on the same page today.

[King Kodiak]

This is not scientific of course, but someone asked this on Quora, and the guy who answered is 100% correct:

If a grizzly bear or black bear was going to attack you, would it try to sneak up on you, or would it make itself known first?



www.quora.com/If-a-grizzly-bear-or-black-bear-was-going-to-attack-you-would-it-try-to-sneak-up-on-you-or-would-it-make-itself-known-first

[brobear]

Quote: So why are you putting cats at the same level of bears now? Did the cat boys finally get to you?

*How did you come to this conclusion? Cats are specialists - pure ambush predator. All of them; every cat species.
Bears are omnivores/opportunists. A bear is a master of many trades. Hunting is just one of his many skills. But when the bear hunts, he has multiple methods. Sometimes he will run where he knows he might scare-up an elk calf. Then once discovered, the bear will chase and catch the elk calf. A big grizzly will sometimes try this with bison. This is an example of; category #3; kill by chase.
But a grizzly will also wait in bushes or other cover at a location where he knows will likely show-up a moose or other large herbivore which he will ambush and kill. The grizzlies of the "Old West" used to ambush mustang horses in this manner. Doug Peacock told of a grizzly that had set-up an ambush for him up ahead in the direction he was walking.
Remember, there is nothing insulting about being an ambush predator. It is probably the smartest way to hunt. No matter what method you choose, you don't get the meat until you catch it.

[King Kodiak]

I never said brown bears dont ambush sometimes, i just said they use category 1 and 3 alot more than category 2. So how about you give me your best opinion on the percentage that brown bears and tigers use when hunting?

Brown bears:

Category 1:
Category 2:
Category 3:

Tigers:

Category 1:
Category 2:
Category 3:

[brobear]

OK; we have it clearly narrowed down to three categories of killings which take place among the wild beasts of the natural world:

category 1- Face-Off - like two boxers who step into the ring and look each other in the eye.
category 2- Ambush - like a Ninja who appears unexpectedly out of the darkness and attacks his victim without warning.( not a face-off ).
category 3- Chase and Catch - like a wolf who chases the caribou. The caribou knows he is there. The wolf attacks from behind.( not a face-off ).

*Only categories #2 and #3 are hunting techniques. The predator either attacks from a hiding place or he runs down his prey in a long-distance run. Prime example of a pure ambush predator - cougar. Prime example of a kill by chase predator - wolf.
Category #1 is when the prey decides to stand his ground and fight. Then the predator is given the choice of accept the challenge or hunt elsewhere.

[Deleted]

Canids aka wolves here also exhaust and face-off after herbivore exhaustion most times with Bison, Elk, Moose

[tom]

Jun 22, 2020 7:02:29 GMT -5 King Kodiak said:

Brown bears are a mixture of both 2 and 3. 

Are you saying brown bears dont use category 1 at all? Are you saying they dont hunt head on? Because most times they do. Most videos show category 1.

What if we take "Hunt" out of the equation. What category would you place this scenario in?  A large male coastal Bear invades Vans backyard where he has his favorite females loafing and feeding. Van moves in to try and deter the intruder and chase him away. However, this large male has no intention of retreating and is intent on fighting to win over the harem. The intent is to fight to the death or till one finally retreats.  

[King Kodiak]

Jun 22, 2020 13:26:03 GMT -5 tom said:

Jun 22, 2020 7:02:29 GMT -5 King Kodiak said:

Are you saying brown bears dont use category 1 at all? Are you saying they dont hunt head on? Because most times they do. Most videos show category 1.

What if we take "Hunt" out of the equation. What category would you place this scenario in?  A large male coastal Bear invades Vans backyard where he has his favorite females loafing and feeding. Van moves in to try and deter the intruder and chase him away. However, this large male has no intention of retreating and is intent on fighting to win over the harem. The intent is to fight to the death or till one finally retreats.  

Well, if both bears were intent on fighting that would be a clear case of category 1. The thing is this though, there is a confusion here, when we talk about big cats, we have to differentiate between hunting and fighting because all cats are officially classified as "ambush predators", this means they mostly use categories 2 and 3, basically never a category 1. When we talk about brown bears, its the complete opposite, hunting and fighting are basically the same because brown bears mostly hunt face to face, so bears use mostly categories 1 and 3. Cats rely on stealth and ambush, while brown bears mostly rely on raw strength.