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Post by tom on May 22, 2020 12:48:27 GMT -5
Good topic for discussion brobear.
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Post by brobear on May 22, 2020 13:56:19 GMT -5
Good topic for discussion brobear. Thank you Tom. However, there is a point that I feel that I have to make periodically. Some predators are by nature ambush predators. In fact, I would dare to say that most predators are ambush predators. The few exceptions are those like the wolf who simply run down their chosen prey. Cats are specialists ( IMHO ) who have been ambushing prey animals for roughly ten-million years. To simply walk up to a large animal and go head-to-head with it, even if said animal will not run, is simply not in the natural character of the big cat. I do not view cats as cowardly animals. As I have mentioned several times within the Domain; it takes courage to attack a huge powerfully built herbivore, armed with horns and hoofs, three or four times your own weight, even from ambush. I would be too chicken-hearted to try this with a Bowie knife in my hand ( buffalo, bison, yak, or gaur ). Nevertheless, there remains a difference between an ambush and a face-off. Tigers killing sloth bears and black bears from ambush does not register as defeating these bears in a face-off.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 23, 2020 8:25:22 GMT -5
Thats true, but not bears. Bears are predators, but not ambush predators. Even though barren ground grizzlies attack musk ox by ambush, and polar bears sometimes ambush beluga whales and seals, they still prefer to attack head on most times.
Big cats hunt by ambush basically every single time, there are exceptions, but not many.
Bears hunt basically always head on, there are exceptions by ambush, but not many.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 23, 2020 8:30:50 GMT -5
You will never see a tiger face to face with a prey item like this: now this is the very definition of head on my friends:
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 23, 2020 8:45:38 GMT -5
You will never see a tiger face to face with a prey item like this: now this is the very definition of head on my friends:
Actually tigers very rarely kill prey head on but as you pointed out, the grizzly bear is more capable of taking down prey head on.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 23, 2020 8:52:21 GMT -5
Yeah, thats probably the only video of a tiger attacking head on, a brave specimen of a tiger. And the tiger was fast to attack, the bear in the video above was face to face with that Caribou for a long time.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 23, 2020 8:58:37 GMT -5
This here is the norm in tigers: Bengal tigress teaching her cub how to hunt. She ambushed and injured a samba deer. At minute 0:54, the narrator says "she has taken her prey completely by surprise".
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Post by brobear on May 23, 2020 14:22:31 GMT -5
Obviously, a tiger attacks a wild boar from a hidden place; taking the boar completely by surprise - an ambush. Obviously, a tiger is seen by the boar, the boar does not retreat, and the tiger kills the boar - a face-off. Not-so-Obvious, a tiger stalks a wild boar, the boar sees the tiger and retreats. The tiger chases the boar and attacks from behind - face-off or ambush? ( or is there a third category? ).
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Post by King Kodiak on May 23, 2020 14:41:04 GMT -5
Yeah, the "50% ambush" category, lmao. The boar saw the tiger and ran away, so it was not entirely an ambush. On the other hand, the boar did not want to fight and ran away, he was not willing to fight, the tiger took advantage, chased it and attacked from behind. 50% ambush because we cant call it a head on fight either.
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 23, 2020 14:42:51 GMT -5
That's indeed a very good thread and some very valuable thoughts have been shared. My take on this is simple: What starts out as an ambush, remains an ambush; a fair face-off would be an instance where the two individuals are looking each other right in the eye and are fully prepared to go at it with the mutual intention to drive off/kill their respective opponent, any slight element of surprise ruins the whole psychological factor in my opinion.
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Post by brobear on May 23, 2020 15:08:39 GMT -5
This is a face-off:
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Post by King Kodiak on May 23, 2020 15:12:25 GMT -5
I dont want to bring this subject again because i know its not permitted no more in this forum. (Delete post if necessary).
But as we can read in basically all the opinions in this thread, its clear that a fair face to face fight in the wild is very rare. Especially in regards to bears and tigers. Tigers attack bears by ambush, not to mention that they avoid the adult males. On the other hand, when brown bears displace tigers, the tigers run away basically everytime, so as we can see, there are no fights.
And this is why to see a real, fair, face to face fight between two animals, you need staged captive fights, yes gentleman, CAPTIVE FIGHTS. Why? Locked in a cage or pit, face to face, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, until death. A fight between two healthy adult males. And what has happened in captive fights? Bears have decimated tigers. Debate over.
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Post by brobear on May 23, 2020 15:50:02 GMT -5
Obviously, a tiger attacks a wild boar from a hidden place; taking the boar completely by surprise - an ambush. Obviously, a tiger is seen by the boar, the boar does not retreat, and the tiger kills the boar - a face-off. Not-so-Obvious, a tiger stalks a wild boar, the boar sees the tiger and retreats. The tiger chases the boar and attacks from behind - face-off or ambush? ( or is there a third category? ). category 1- Face-Off - like two boxers who step into the ring and look each other in the eye. category 2- Ambush - like a Ninja who appears unexpectedly out of the darkness and attacks his victim without warning.( not a face-off ). category 3- Kill by Chase - like a wolf who chases the caribou. The caribou knows he is there. The wolf attacks from behind.( not a face-off ).
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 23, 2020 18:08:22 GMT -5
Reply 30: That is probably a picture of T. rex vs King Kong.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 22:57:58 GMT -5
I dont want to bring this subject again because i know its not permitted no more in this forum. (Delete post if necessary).
But as we can read in basically all the opinions in this thread, its clear that a fair face to face fight in the wild is very rare. Especially in regards to bears and tigers. Tigers attack bears by ambush, not to mention that they avoid the adult males. On the other hand, when brown bears displace tigers, the tigers run away basically everytime, so as we can see, there are no fights.
And this is why to see a real, fair, face to face fight between two animals, you need staged captive fights, yes gentleman, CAPTIVE FIGHTS. Why? Locked in a cage or pit, face to face, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, until death. A fight between two healthy adult males. And what has happened in captive fights? Bears have decimated tigers. Debate over. Agreed.
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Post by tom on May 24, 2020 1:39:31 GMT -5
Obviously, a tiger attacks a wild boar from a hidden place; taking the boar completely by surprise - an ambush. Obviously, a tiger is seen by the boar, the boar does not retreat, and the tiger kills the boar - a face-off. Not-so-Obvious, a tiger stalks a wild boar, the boar sees the tiger and retreats. The tiger chases the boar and attacks from behind - face-off or ambush? ( or is there a third category? ). 1- Face-Off - like two boxers who step into the ring and look each other in the eye. 2- Ambush - like a Ninja who appears unexpectedly out of the darkness and attacks his victim without warning. ( not a face-off ). 3- Kill by Chase - like a wolf who chases the caribou. The caribou knows he is there. The wolf attacks from behind. ( not a face-off ). Good analogy. A face-off to me is when two animals (could be anything) are completely aware of the other and neither is retreating and a fight is eminent. A Lion and a Buffalo. The Buffalo decides he's going to stand his ground and fight. I agree on #3 a predator who is chasing down his prey who is retreating is not a face-off. I disagree Kodiak that true face offs can only happen in captivity. They happen in the wild to. What is fair.... there's no fair face-off in the wild which is what were talking about here. The Tiger runs away from a Bear rather than face him down, so what... He lives to see another day. I would call that intelligence, but I know you would probably call that cowardliness. As to that I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time there are no cowards in the wild, that's giving animals human qualities. I call it instinct and instinct tells the Tiger that if he stands to fight head on with the Bear he will come out the worse-for-wear. Yes the Debate is over so lets not keep bringing it up about captive fights. From now on lets stick to wild encounters as has been stated here quite plainly, captive encounters are meaningless here at the Domain.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 24, 2020 2:07:28 GMT -5
Hypothetically, yes of course that a fair face off can happen in the wild, and they have before on record. Its just that you can wait 100 years and not see a fair head on fight between an adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear in the wild. So unless you are willing to wait a lifetime, you might as well grab two healthy, adult male specimens, around same size, put them in a cage and make them fight. Its not a big deal Tom.
Yes sir.
Well at least Malikc6 agreed with me, so am happy, ha ha.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 24, 2020 4:36:42 GMT -5
Tom. I would also like to add that wild animals are generally more cautious than gladiator dogs which have been trained to fear nothing due to human intervention.
Big cats seem to be more willing to stand their ground inside their territory than outside their territory.If two big cats face off the one protecting its territory usually has the psychological edge until he gets too old (lions seem to fight more than other big cats - other cats do fight at times too). Bears are not territorial like big cats but they still do have a hierarchy system. Bears being omnivorous are more willing to engage due to the face they can survive on berries and fruit even if severely injured.
Solitary big cats though powerful will starve to death with broken jaws (there are still accounts of cats which have survived serious injuries).
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 24, 2020 4:48:15 GMT -5
Not many animals can take on a triceratops head on. And I am talking about powerful theropods of the past.
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Post by brobear on May 24, 2020 6:29:38 GMT -5
Quote: Tom. I would also like to add that wild animals are generally more cautious than gladiator dogs which have been trained to fear nothing due to human intervention. *Domestic dogs are no more a part of the natural world than we are. If having a relatively good owner, a dog has little concern of injuries.
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