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Post by brobear on May 30, 2022 7:06:24 GMT -5
A recent post by a familiar juvenile fanboy - Quote, "Whats very peculiar is that although Amur tigers are still regularly hunting bears to this day (2022) there's not a single reliable case of a brown bear killing any tiger, despite being often attacked by tigers. This is odd. Why did only some cases occur way back in the last century?, but in the last 30+ years of extensive scientific field research and studies, biologists have never found a single reliable case of a brown bear killing a tiger?" *It doesn't take a genus. Adult male tiger ambush adolescent brown bears and female brown bears. The tiger always chooses a bear smaller than himself, usually by at least 100 pounds. That same tiger will never ambush an adult male brown bear nor will he likely defend a carcass from the adult male brown bear. *Edit and add; adult brown she-bears killed by tigers are ambushed as prey ( food ), when their regular prey are less abundant. An adult female brown bear, with cubs, will defend those cubs from any adversary, including a tiger. No tiger is likely to stand still and accept the challenge of a charging enraged she-bear. The tiger will retreat. This is why tigers are seldom killed by bears. The tiger is hard-wired to kill from ambush. He does not relish the idea of fighting a bear face-to-face; Not even a female sloth bear less than half his own weight.
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Post by brobear on Jun 1, 2022 9:01:37 GMT -5
Yes; both adult male and female tigers have been killed by brown bear ( Reply #25 ). As for the large she-bear ambushed and killed by the tiger with too many names ( M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha ), that be was neither measured nor weighed. What I learned from reading from Frank and John Craighead; a bear is almost always over-estimated in weight by any but a true expert. Only a park ranger or biologist who is highly experienced in the usage of a dart gun with drugs to tranquilize a bear can with near accuracy determine the weight of a bear. Perhaps that she-bear ambushed by Dale was near the tiger's own weight. Then again, the bear might have been 100 pounds less in weight. The facts are unknown. But here's the kicker. A big male tiger ambushes and kills a female bear less in weight than himself and, because of so much hoopla over this singular event, the tiger becomes a celebrity and given at least 5 names. In reality, there was absolutely nothing spectacular about this one ambush killing. Simply another tiger ambushing and killing another female bear smaller than himself.
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Post by brobear on Jun 2, 2022 5:30:56 GMT -5
From My post: Quote: That largest female brown bears weigh well over 200 kg, so for tigers to hunt and kill the largest adult female brown bears is very impressive. *I agree this was impressive. That 440-pound she-bear ambushed and killed by Dale was equal in weight with him. Thus far, that she-bear remains the largest bear on record confirmed as ever being killed by a tiger. Warsaw: So called "That 440-pound she-bear" size was estimated to be 150-200 kg .So,the reality is that researchers don't know for sure.(330pound or 440 pound) Therefore, the she-bear killed by the world's most infamous tiger ( Dale ) weighed anywhere from 330 pounds to 440 pounds ( probably about 385 pounds ).
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Post by brobear on Jun 2, 2022 5:49:48 GMT -5
Actually Vsevolod Sysoev did:
Peter wrote long time ago:
Sysoev is one of the very few who saw a number of fights between adult tigers and adult brown bears. In one case, the fight ended undecided. In another, a male tiger killed an adult female and in two others the male tigers were defeated. At least one of the two male tigers was killed. Many think this incident happened in 1960. Sysoev later wrote a story about an encounter between a male tiger and a male bear called 'Amba'. Although the story probably is fictional, chances are he used things he actually saw. I'll post the story in some time. For now, I'll try to paint the picture that emerged from the story. *Note: In two cases the adult male tigers were defeated by adult female brown bears. At least one of those two male tigers was killed by the she-bear.
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Post by brobear on Jun 20, 2022 1:39:48 GMT -5
I love you bro. I qouted the Miquelle and Tkanchenko in my these 16 solid points. 1#. Brown bears are generally zero percent in tiger's diet. (The Siberian Tiger Project: Diet table) 2#. If preyed, thosebears are always young and subadults, and very rarely female adults. (Ivan Seryodkin, N.A. Baikov) 3#. Tigers generally avoid brown bears and hestiate to attack them. (Alexander Batalov, N.A. Baikov) 4#. Male brown bears are not afraid of tigers. (Grigory Linkov) 5#. Brown bears can displace tigers from their kills including adult males and invariably dominate such disputes. (Miquelle, Tkachenko) 6#. A male brown bear can generally defeat a male male tiger in a fight. (Mikhail Krechmar) 7#. A tiger always chooses a bear about 100 pound smaller than himself. (BART SCHLEYER) 8#. If a tiger attacks by ambush, the tiger wins but if the ambush fails so the bear would surely conquer the tiger. (MIKHAILOVICH SHIROKOGOROV) 9#. Brown bear predation on tigers is very but becomes intense in harsh winters. (Gorokhov) 10#. No case of adult male brown bear killed by tiger is known to biologists. (Miquelle, Amurtiger centre) 11#. Female brown bear is more stronger than tigeress. (Alex Kulikov) 12#. Apart from human, brown bears have no natural enemies. (N.A. Baikov) 13#. Brown bears reap great benefit from tiger's winter kills. (Dale Miquelle) 14#. Brown bears are stronger and more enduring than the tigers. (Sysoev) 15#. Brown bears are the real master of the taiga as they are not afraid if tigers and can beat them.(Grigory linkov, Sysoev) 16#. Brown bear kleptoparasitism can effect tiger's prey selection meaning brown bears can effect tiger's survival rate. (Krofel, John Goldrich) 👍 btw, Concerning the eleventh point, there is scientific evidence that female brown bears are stronger than even similarly-sized male tigers too ! [/u] Male Tiger : 81% Female Brown Bear : 83,1% Edge : Female Brown BearForelimb Proportions Index :[/u] Male Tiger : 148,6% Female Brown Bear : 157,2% Edge : Female Brown BearHumerus epicondyles index :[/u] Male Tiger : 28,2% Female Brown Bear : 29,2% Edge : Female Brown BearOlecranon mechanical advantage :[/u] Male Tiger : 22% Female Brown Bear : 19,2% Edge : Male TigerStyloid width index :[/u] Male Tiger : 32,1% Female Brown Bear : 32,5% Edge : Female Brown BearPisiform mechanical advantage :[/u] Male Tiger : 35,9% Female Brown Bear : 43,9% Edge : Female Brown Bear[/color] Ischium mechanical advantage :[/u] Male Tiger : 16,8% Female Brown Bear : 16,5% Edge : Male TigerFemur epicondyle Index :[/u] Male Tiger : 21,3% Female Brown Bear : 20,2% Edge : Male TigerHindlimb malleolus Index :[/u] Male Tiger : 22,1% Female Brown Bear : 25,4% Edge : Female Brown BearCalcaneus mechanical advantage :[/u] Male Tiger : 54,3% Female Brown Bear : 64,9% Edge : Female Brown BearOut of all the indexes, only three supported the male Tiger while the rest goes to the female Brown Bear's favor. This means that even a she-bear is overall physically stronger than a male tiger of equal size. Ofc we can add the bear's plantigrade posture as a bonus. Source for the indexes and comparison above : www.researchgate.net/publication/298056854_Sexual_selection_on_skeletal_shape_in_Carnivora*Note: Bringing a copy of this to: Debate: Male Amur Tiger vs Female Ussuri Brown Bear [/quote]
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Post by brobear on Jun 20, 2022 1:46:38 GMT -5
Now I feel good about my "draw" vote. In a face-to-face fight, unless the male tiger has a significant weight advantage, I would give them each a 50/50. Also, I will add, all adult female brown bears killed by male tigers are killed by ambush. She is, after all, bigger than a sloth bear.
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Post by brobear on Jun 21, 2022 8:41:32 GMT -5
As of this point in time, we have no confirmed account of a tiger going face-to-face against an adult female brown bear except after the initial ambush attack. Once ambushed, after the bear manages to throw off her attacker, from this point, if the tiger keeps up his attack, then the tiger is fighting against a wounded bear. A tiger always kills a brown bear from ambush, with a bite to the neck at the base of her skull. If the she-bear manages to dislodge the tiger and through him off of her back, at this point she has been wounded by both his claws and her teeth. Chances are, her wounds can be described as serious. Should the tiger manage to kill the bear face-to-face in a fight after he has been tossed from her back, this in no way changes the fact that the male tiger ambushed the she-bear. What starts off as an ambush remains an ambush. Both adult female brown bears killed by the famous "bear-killer" known as M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha were killed from ambush. In my opinion, and I have yet to be been proven wrong, not even the biggest male tiger will stand his ground at the sight of a mother Ussuri brown bear charging towards him in defense of her cubs. *Note also; neither of the two adult she-bears killed by Dale ( aka Dima ) or ( aka Misha ) or ( M20 or T-20 ) were easily killed by the big male tiger even after being ambushed.
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Post by yz on Jun 24, 2022 14:32:03 GMT -5
brobear You know? Whenever I have a look at this Male Tiger-female Brown Bear comparison and the conclusion made out of it, I always get to laugh myself out at the "biologists" and "experts" who claim that tigers can beat 600 kg male brown bears in a fight ! 😂😂😂
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Post by brobear on Jun 25, 2022 3:15:36 GMT -5
brobear You know? Whenever I have a look at this Male Tiger-female Brown Bear comparison and the conclusion made out of it, I always get to laugh myself out at the "biologists" and "experts" who claim that tigers can beat 600 kg male brown bears in a fight ! 😂😂😂 From what I'm seeing, biologists, animal trainers, and others "in-the-know" about both big cats and bears would, nearly all, wager on the full-grown male brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Jun 27, 2022 0:12:28 GMT -5
When the tiger of many names ( M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha ) fought and killed a she-bear ( usually described as being large ) in a fight that was said to have lasted 20 minutes, this tiger became a celebrity. This she-bear killed by Dale weighed anywhere from 330 pounds to 440 pounds ( probably about 385 pounds ). Dale had been weighed in at 445 pounds. From: panthera.org/blog-post/dance-death-tigers-and-bears-battle-northeast-asia "Dima killed several more bears in the following years that we tracked him, and not all kills were so clean and efficient as my first discovery. At the site of his next kill, another female brown bear, I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood. After the fight, Dima spent four days in the area and completely consumed the bear." *Note; evidently, Dale had ambushed this big she-bear but was unable to make a quick kill. After the initial ambush attack, the bear was able to free herself from the tiger's grasp and fight for her life. The fight lasted about 20 minutes. What this proves to me is that a full-grown female Ussuri brown bear, even one wounded and bleeding from an ambush attack, can give a full-grown male Amur tiger a terrible fight. For this fight to have lasted so long tells me that the tiger would not win such a fight every time.
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Post by yz on Jun 27, 2022 3:19:54 GMT -5
When the tiger of many names ( M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha ) fought and killed a she-bear ( usually described as being large ) in a fight that was said to have lasted 20 minutes, this tiger became a celebrity. This she-bear killed by Dale weighed anywhere from 330 pounds to 440 pounds ( probably about 385 pounds ). Dale had been weighed in at 445 pounds. From: panthera.org/blog-post/dance-death-tigers-and-bears-battle-northeast-asia "Dima killed several more bears in the following years that we tracked him, and not all kills were so clean and efficient as my first discovery. At the site of his next kill, another female brown bear, I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood. After the fight, Dima spent four days in the area and completely consumed the bear." *Note; evidently, Dale had ambushed this big she-bear but was unable to make a quick kill. After the initial ambush attack, the bear was able to free herself from the tiger's grasp and fight for her life. The fight lasted about 20 minutes. What this proves to me is that a full-grown female Ussuri brown bear, even one wounded and bleeding from an ambush attack, can give a full-grown male Amur tiger a terrible fight. For this fight to have lasted so long tells me that the tiger would not win such a fight every time. Ig it also proves that bears are better at fighting than big cats.
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Post by brobear on Aug 4, 2022 2:50:23 GMT -5
Frank321 - No "Misha doesn't seem to have much trouble in killing equal size adult [sow] brown bears." Neither do brown bears for that matter. There is a record of a sow brown bear ambushing and bringing down a boar, showing similarity to the method P. tigris uses in hunting bears. Furthermore, a sow brown bear, even at similar size to a boar is not as formidable; adult specimens--and especially old boars--have much greater muscle mass relative to size than subadult boars and sows in addition to the leverage of the boar's skeletal system being more geared to strength (that is, a point of muscle attachment further from the boar's respective joint than in the sow's). "Ambushing a 'similar-sized' bear" [even a sow] is a far different thing than actually facing off against one--no tiger goes around "fighting bears." The tiger's ability to hit with incredible momentum and bite the back of the neck of the bear with its massive canines allows for, in most cases, a relatively short and undangerous hunt. *Fact: When a big male tiger kills an adult female brown bear, it is always from ambush. Quote, "...no tiger goes around fighting bears."
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Post by brobear on Aug 12, 2022 15:34:28 GMT -5
Siberian Tiger vs Ussuri Brown Bear (Sow) - as brobear requested
At least we can all agree that this particular tiger vs brown bear is debatable. I voted neutral (50/50) as a face-to-face fight can go either way. I do not believe that a tiger would choose to fight against a full-grown female Ussuri brown bear face-to-face and I believe that the tiger would retreat from a charging mother bear defending her cubs.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Aug 21, 2022 13:07:55 GMT -5
I have to re-do this comparison some day; now with the database that I have on Yellowstone grizzlies it will be much more accurate. The model I used above is a captive Ussuri brown bear sow from Yorkshire Wildlife Park, a pretty large individual that probably weighed 200kg or close to that.
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Post by brobear on Sept 15, 2022 6:37:45 GMT -5
Frank321 - No "Misha doesn't seem to have much trouble in killing equal size adult [sow] brown bears." Neither do brown bears for that matter. There is a record of a sow brown bear ambushing and bringing down a boar, showing similarity to the method P. tigris uses in hunting bears. Furthermore, a sow brown bear, even at similar size to a boar is not as formidable; adult specimens--and especially old boars--have much greater muscle mass relative to size than subadult boars and sows in addition to the leverage of the boar's skeletal system being more geared to strength (that is, a point of muscle attachment further from the boar's respective joint than in the sow's). "Ambushing a 'similar-sized' bear" [even a sow] is a far different thing than actually facing off against one--no tiger goes around "fighting bears." The tiger's ability to hit with incredible momentum and bite the back of the neck of the bear with its massive canines allows for, in most cases, a relatively short and undangerous hunt. *Fact: When a big male tiger kills an adult female brown bear, it is always from ambush. Quote, "...no tiger goes around fighting bears." I voted Male Amur Tiger vs Female Ussuri Brown Bear 50/50 and I stand by that decision. Sometimes (not often) when a tiger ambushes a brown she-bear, the tiger is killed. See Reply #263. Also, I have read from more than one source, "When a tiger ambushes an adult female brown bear, he is almost always successful." "Almost" means that sometimes the brown she-bear comes out on top. Either she turns the table on him, and kills him or, in sloth bear fashion, her defense is solid enough to cause the tiger to retreat. Either scenario is a win for the bear. But, this is after being ambushed. In the unlikely case of a face-off, I would give them each a 50/50 chance. However, the reason I say unlikely, like all cats, the tiger is hardwired to be an ambush predator. He dislikes a face-to-face fight. *Note: When a tiger ambushes a bear but fails to make a quick kill, and finds himself in a fight, if the tiger fails to kill the bear, then this is a win for the bear. The tiger's objective, when he ambushes a bear, is to kill and eat the bear. If he fails to kill and eat the bear, this is a mission failure. When a bear is ambushed by a tiger, her only objective is to survive a tiger attack. If she manages not to be killed by the tiger, then she is clearly the winner - mission accomplished. Remember, a tiger can outrun a bear. Therefore, "the bear escaped" is a very weak excuse.
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Post by brobear on Sept 15, 2022 7:20:26 GMT -5
Average accepted weight of a full-grown female Ussuri brown bear - 415 pounds. Average accepted weight of a full-grown male Siberian/Amur tiger - 441 pounds. The tiger has a weight advantage of 26 pounds; making this just about a weight-parity fight. Keep in mind that a female sloth bear only half the weight of the tiger can and will, more often than not, defend herself with enough show of aggression that the tiger decides to walk away and seek safer prey.
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2022 6:02:44 GMT -5
animalkingdom.su/books/item/f00/s00/z0000074/st031.shtmlFrom Russian biologist - Bromlei "Among animals, an adult tiger has no enemies. Only very rare cases are known when he died from wounds inflicted on him by a cleaver boar, buffalo or brown bear, who were defending against his attack." Meaning, of course, that (as mentioned previously) sometimes a tiger will ambush a full-grown Ussuri brown she-bear and, in the struggle, the bear kills the tiger.
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