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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 4:44:09 GMT -5
Conclusions taken from collected data found in topic: "Tiger vs Brown Bear in the Wild"
Full-grown male Amur tiger vs Full-grown male Ussuri brown bear - a mismatch in favor of the bear.
*However: Full-grown male Amur tiger vs Full-grown female Ussui brown bear - logically debatable.
Fact: Average mature Amur tiger (contemporary) - 418.9 pounds.
Fact: Average mature Amur tiger (historical) - 477.3 pounds.
Fact: Average mature female Ussuri brown bear (5 years+) - 416.7 pounds.
( full-grown 9+ year old female Ussuri brown bear - add no less than 50 pounds - 470+ pounds.
This can and should be debated as a weight-parity face-off. 
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 18, 2020 6:24:56 GMT -5
The Siberian tiger seldom preys on female Ussuri brown bears despite being capable of killing them. In a face to face fight, I think it is about 50/50.
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 18, 2020 8:30:18 GMT -5
Honestly I think a persistent tiger should be able to win more often than not against a female bear of this weight ambush or no ambush. The tiger would most likely flee since they're primarily ambush predators and a bear of any gender is going to be a hell of a fight. The difference in weight, size, and strength is quite large with bears (as is the case with many mammals obviously), and in this instance, I don't think it's enough to beat the tiger more often than not.
I do think that stalemates and the tiger deciding that the fight isn't worth it may be more of what would likely occur, but I think a hungry male Amur tiger that's determined enough should be able to do this. Make it a male bear and it's a different story.
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 8:39:33 GMT -5
Alright; we now have one 50-50 and one "tiger wins". There are some topic questions not easily answered - highly debatable. In some of these I have been back-and-forth like a ping-pong ball. One such topic is the big cat vs bear at weight-parity. The whole idea of a weight-parity fight is to give each animal a "fair chance" of a victory.
In any weight-parity face-off between big cat and bear, I would wager on the bear ( but not by much ). In reality, the cat is given the size advantage here - taller, longer, and a greater reach. Nevertheless, from several videos watched over the course of time, common sense, that which you might imagine, does not always hold true. From my observations, a big cat has a difficult time even with a bear smaller than himself. I am therefore rethinking my previous 50-50 view of this parity match-up.
In the Russian taiga, the male Amur tiger and the female Ussuri brown bear are very near to weight-parity. Therefore ( IMO ) in a face-off to the death: Male Amur tiger vs Ussuri she-bear - 6 out of 10 for the bear. My reasoning is this; an adult male Bengal tiger, which is a more "beefed-up" tiger than a Siberian, has a hard time against a female sloth bear ( top weight about 210 pounds ). A female grizzly, especially one defending her cubs, is a lot more bear. But still just an opinion.
There was also the video of the Asiatic black bear confined with a lion. Just as a tiger has a hard time getting past the sloth bear's defenses, the lion could not get through the black bear's defenses. My conclusion, big cats simply don't know how to fight a bear face-to-face. A bear is just a totally different animal than any normal big cat adversary.
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 18, 2020 8:49:12 GMT -5
The tiger did have trouble with the sloth bear, but it doesn't change the fact that the tiger could have killed the sloth bear if it really wanted to. Hence my example is a persistent determined tiger rather than the norm.
A male cougar could kill a wolf the same size as him, but it won't at all be an easy fight. Same with a leopard against a large female hyena, but the fight may not prove to be worth it.
I'd also back a male lion over a female brown bear in this scenario.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 18, 2020 9:07:58 GMT -5
The only time in history that we know of a female bear killing a male tiger was in captivity, from Clyde Beatty, but its known that the female bear had at least a 200 lb weight advantage.
At same weight, the female Ussuri brown bear should still be more robust than a male tiger, the female bear also has more average shoulder height (96 to 94 cm). The female bear has more chest girth (132 to 123 cm). The male tiger has more head and body length (195 to 160 cm). Strength wise, they should be about equal. Bite force definitely goes to the tiger. The male tiger should be alot more persistent to kill the female bear. All this makes me believe that the tiger would ultimately win 6/10 times. Not bad for a female bear.
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 18, 2020 9:22:03 GMT -5
The only time in history that we know of a female bear killing a male tiger was in captivity, from Clyde Beatty, but its known that the female bear had at least a 200 lb weight advantage.
At same weight, the female Ussuri brown bear should still be more robust than a male tiger, the female bear also has more average shoulder height (96 to 94 cm). The female bear has more chest girth (132 to 123 cm). The male tiger has more head and body length (195 to 160 cm). Strength wise, they should be about equal. Bite force definitely goes to the tiger. The male tiger should be alot more persistent to kill the female bear. All this makes me believe that the tiger would ultimately win 6/10 times. Not bad for a female bear.
Would you back a male tiger over a female brown bear with a 100 lb weight advantage? |
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 18, 2020 9:31:37 GMT -5
In this case, i would say its 50%. I dont view an 100 lb weight advantage as a deciding factor. 200 lbs or more, yes, that would definitely be a deciding factor.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Sept 18, 2020 9:47:13 GMT -5
Well, we have two options here: Historical specimens (~477lbs for the tiger and ~417lbs for the bear) put against each other or contemporary specimens (~417lbs for the tiger and ~320lbs for the bear) put against each other. I personally see the tiger being victorious in both stipulations as he has a weight advantage which should render the bear's physical attributes at weight parity more or less ineffective (also note that a sow is lbs for lbs less impressive than a boar). In a natural scenario a bold sow should be able to chase off a male tiger in order to protect her cubs, however, if things came to blows, I'd definitely go with the tiger here; ~6.5-7/10 taking historical specimens into account and ~8/10 taking contemporary specimens into account; mainly due to the fact that the weight advantage of the tiger is too significant.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 18, 2020 10:02:15 GMT -5
From the original post:
This is up to 1970 (Kucherenko). But according to Guate's chart, the contemporary average weight is 145 kg (320 lbs), This is from the time period 1993-2001.
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 11:09:38 GMT -5
Well, we have two options here: Historical specimens (~477lbs for the tiger and ~417lbs for the bear) put against each other or contemporary specimens (~417lbs for the tiger and ~320lbs for the bear) put against each other. I personally see the tiger being victorious in both stipulations as he has a weight advantage which should render the bear's physical attributes at weight parity more or less ineffective (also note that a sow is lbs for lbs less impressive than a boar). In a natural scenario a bold sow should be able to chase off a male tiger in order to protect her cubs, however, if things came to blows, I'd definitely go with the tiger here; ~6.5-7/10 taking historical specimens into account and ~8/10 taking contemporary specimens into account; mainly due to the fact that the weight advantage of the tiger is too significant. *Consider though, that an actual full-grown she-bear is some heavier than the average which includes bears as young as 5 years old. Fact: Average mature Amur tiger (contemporary) - 418.9 pounds. Fact: Average mature Amur tiger (historical) - 477.3 pounds. Fact: Average mature female Ussuri brown bear (5 years+) - 416.7 pounds. ( full-grown 9+ year old female Ussuri brown bear - add no less than 50 pounds - 470+ pounds. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 18, 2020 11:14:07 GMT -5
Read my reply #9. The average weight has been downgraded. (According to Guate's chart). See from 1993 to 2001: it is now 145 kg (320 lbs).
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 11:31:22 GMT -5
1993 - 2001, the males are larger, females smaller. Like I said, averages are less than accurate. But; add 50 pounds to 320. A full-grown brown bear will be at least 50 pounds heavier than the average made which includes 5 year old bears. Probably well above a 50 pound difference. 320+50 = 370 pounds.
But also, I must question, why would the males have gained in size and the females become smaller? For such discrepancies; plus the fact that the brown bear averages is never really correct due to the biologists habit of using all bears from age 5 and up.... I prefer simplifying ( as stated in my first post ) to a weight-parity face-off.
*Let's say 420 pound male tiger vs 420 pound Ussuri she-bear. ( common weights for either species ).
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 11:44:30 GMT -5
The tiger did have trouble with the sloth bear, but it doesn't change the fact that the tiger could have killed the sloth bear if it really wanted to. Hence my example is a persistent determined tiger rather than the norm. A male cougar could kill a wolf the same size as him, but it won't at all be an easy fight. Same with a leopard against a large female hyena, but the fight may not prove to be worth it. I'd also back a male lion over a female brown bear in this scenario. Quote: The tiger did have trouble with the sloth bear, but it doesn't change the fact that the tiger could have killed the sloth bear if it really wanted to. *The tiger did really want to kill the bear. His objective was to kill and eat the bear. However, the tiger was unable to get past the bear's defenses. The tiger gave-up when he became too exhausted to continue. Consider this; if a sloth bear is an easy kill for a tiger, then the sloth bear would never have adapted the habit of "standing his ground" against a tiger. The sloth bear's objective is not to kill the tiger. She only wanted to survive a tiger encounter. She was successful. But, a female brown bear is an entirely different animal. In a similar encounter, she will become offensively aggressive. She is bigger than the sloth bear and pound-for-pound stronger than a sloth bear. Especially when she has cubs to protect. *Edit and add: in all of the big cat vs bear videos I have witnessed, only one prime male tiger managed to kill a female sloth bear less than half his own weight. |
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 12:05:27 GMT -5
Charts; page #1: "Tiger vs Brown Bear in the Wild". Ussuri she-bear: head and body length - 160 cm ( 5 feet 3 inches ) / shoulder height - 96 cm ( 3 feet 2 inches ) / weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ). Male Amur tiger: head and body length - 195 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ) / shoulder height - 93 cm ( 3 feet ) / weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ). So we have this study which put the male tiger and the she-bear at weight-parity. Then we have: Historical specimens (~477lbs for the tiger and ~417lbs for the bear) = add 50 lbs: 467 pounds. Or: contemporary specimens (~417lbs for the tiger and ~320lbs for the bear) = add 50 lbs: 370 pounds. *But if these numbers are correct; even the full-grown 9+ year old Ussuri she-bear is from 10 to 50 pounds less in weight than the tiger. Well, this would explain why someone had said that a tiger will ambush even a large brown bear. So now, rethinking this...
( IMO ) at weight-parity, male tiger vs female brown bear: 50-50 ( right back where I started )
In a face-off with each at his and her average weight: 8 out of 10 for the tiger. |
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 14:22:45 GMT -5
From "Weight Collection" ( Reply #54 ) By Warsaw: New morphometric data Ursus arctos lasiotus.
Average body weight for adult female ≥ 7 year old 163.75 kg ( 361 pounds ). ( this is most recent data )
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 18, 2020 15:38:49 GMT -5
Good one there brobear. Yeah, 361 lbs makes more sense than 320 lbs.
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2020 17:26:27 GMT -5
Read my reply #9. The average weight has been downgraded. (According to Guate's chart). See from 1993 to 2001: it is now 145 kg (320 lbs).
1970: males av. 264 kg / females 189 kg 1993-2001: males av. 270 kg / females 145 kg 1993-2001: males are larger by 6 kg ( 13.23 pounds ). 1970: females are larger by 44 kg ( 97 pounds ). *So; can anyone explain why from 1970 thru 2001, male brown bears gained in size while females became smaller? |
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Post by malikc6 on Sept 18, 2020 17:27:48 GMT -5
The tiger did have trouble with the sloth bear, but it doesn't change the fact that the tiger could have killed the sloth bear if it really wanted to. Hence my example is a persistent determined tiger rather than the norm. A male cougar could kill a wolf the same size as him, but it won't at all be an easy fight. Same with a leopard against a large female hyena, but the fight may not prove to be worth it. I'd also back a male lion over a female brown bear in this scenario. Quote: The tiger did have trouble with the sloth bear, but it doesn't change the fact that the tiger could have killed the sloth bear if it really wanted to. *The tiger did really want to kill the bear. His objective was to kill and eat the bear. However, the tiger was unable to get past the bear's defenses. The tiger gave-up when he became too exhausted to continue. Consider this; if a sloth bear is an easy kill for a tiger, then the sloth bear would never have adapted the habit of "standing his ground" against a tiger. The sloth bear's objective is not to kill the tiger. She only wanted to survive a tiger encounter. She was successful. But, a female brown bear is an entirely different animal. In a similar encounter, she will become offensively aggressive. She is bigger than the sloth bear and pound-for-pound stronger than a sloth bear. Especially when she has cubs to protect. *Edit and add: in all of the big cat vs bear videos I have witnessed, only one prime male tiger managed to kill a female sloth bear less than half his own weight. I am no expert on animal behavior but I think that the tiger ultimately just gave up because of how difficult this fight would be just to get a meal. It practically dominated the bear the entire fight with the bear just taking it, but as you said the tiger wasn't able to get a solid grip on the bear's neck. The tiger from the beginning didn't seem very explosive. Aggressive and predatory but not explosive and fully determined as with other tigers or other prey animals. I actually think that the tiger was surprised that the bear put up a decent fight for the tiger to lose interest and leave. However I doubt this would happen if the tiger was pressed with hunger (not starving necessarily) and wanting to make a meal out of a sloth bear smaller than he. At the core, tigers are cats and they're ambush predators, and ambush predators more often than not lose interest if and/or when their prey puts up a good fight. However if the tiger is determined, it's a different story. A cougar could kill a man whether he fights back or doesn't, but most of the time when a man defends himself with his fists and feet, the cougar backs down and flees. There's many reports of this happening. For this match up, yes a brown bear (male or female and in this case it's a female of the same weight) would be offensively aggressive, and I'm convinced that more often than not, it would either end in stalemate or the tiger fleeing. However if this is absolutely to the death, I'm giving it to the tiger. I could be wrong about this, but I'm actually convinced that a 400 lb male tiger may be physically stronger than a female brown bear of the same weight. I think the bear would be overtaken by the tiger and eventually killed sooner or later. |
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2020 0:54:19 GMT -5
malikc6 says: I am no expert on animal behavior but I think that the tiger ultimately just gave up because of how difficult this fight would be just to get a meal. It practically dominated the bear the entire fight with the bear just taking it, but as you said the tiger wasn't able to get a solid grip on the bear's neck. The tiger from the beginning didn't seem very explosive. Aggressive and predatory but not explosive and fully determined as with other tigers or other prey animals. I actually think that the tiger was surprised that the bear put up a decent fight for the tiger to lose interest and leave. However I doubt this would happen if the tiger was pressed with hunger (not starving necessarily) and wanting to make a meal out of a sloth bear smaller than he. At the core, tigers are cats and they're ambush predators, and ambush predators more often than not lose interest if and/or when their prey puts up a good fight. However if the tiger is determined, it's a different story. A cougar could kill a man whether he fights back or doesn't, but most of the time when a man defends himself with his fists and feet, the cougar backs down and flees. There's many reports of this happening. For this match up, yes a brown bear (male or female and in this case it's a female of the same weight) would be offensively aggressive, and I'm convinced that more often than not, it would either end in stalemate or the tiger fleeing. However if this is absolutely to the death, I'm giving it to the tiger. I could be wrong about this, but I'm actually convinced that a 400 lb male tiger may be physically stronger than a female brown bear of the same weight. I think the bear would be overtaken by the tiger and eventually killed sooner or later. *About the prime male tiger who was unable to break through the female sloth bear's defenses; you might be right. Quote: " The tiger from the beginning didn't seem very explosive. Aggressive and predatory but not explosive and fully determined as with other tigers or other prey animals." *This is because rather than a surprise ambush, the tiger was face-to-face with the bear. This is not in the nature of the tiger. The sloth bear is well armed in the claws department. Quote: "At the core, tigers are cats and they're ambush predators, and ambush predators more often than not lose interest if and/or when their prey puts up a good fight." *This is true. In fact, this is only two out of ( lost count ) of a tiger trying to stalk and ambush a sloth bear, but being discovered, the bear standing up to the tiger, and the tiger tries to fight the bear. Few tigers bother to make physical contact at all. If the bear panics and runs, the tiger will give chase and almost always catch and kill the bear. Then again, the tiger may have given up because he was getting tired, knowing that to eat, he still had to go hunting again. One last thing about the tiger and the sloth bear. I have noticed that every single sloth bear caught on video either killed by ambush or confronted by a tiger has been a she-bear - coincidence? Quote: "I could be wrong about this, but I'm actually convinced that a 400 lb male tiger may be physically stronger than a female brown bear of the same weight." *This is certainly debatable. The tiger would have a huge size advantage in length or bipedal height ( everything but girth ). I believe that this would be a close contest of strength. *Reality check: In an all-out, savage, face-to-face fight to the death, at weight-parity... Bear/Tiger 50-50. Their strength may or may not be equal, but the bear has greater stamina. If his defenses hold out long enough, the tiger will exhaust himself. At normal average weights, the tiger has every advantage. Height, Length, Weight, and Strength... Tiger 8 out of 10. *The absolute reality: the tiger is not going to attempt a face-to-face confrontation with an adult Ussuri she-bear. There is no record of a tiger ever killing an adult bear of his own weight or above. In fact, even the juvenile bears are taken by ambush when possible. *There is one report of a tigress ambushing and killing a fat juvenile bear which may have been as heavy or heavier than herself ( according to estimates ). However, this cannot be confirmed as the bear was never weighed. *Note: even if the bear was heavier than the adult tigress, killing a baby does not put a feather in anyone's hat. |
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