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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 12:11:22 GMT -5
Continued......
Some Russian researchers think some adult male brown bears sometimes deliberately target and attack tigresses with cubs in favourable circumstances (snowy conditions). Although it is known tigresses sometimes perish in encounters with male brown bears, the number is too limited to get to conclusions. ______________________________ A satellite bear is a male brown bear who follows a tigress and then displaces her from her kills. If she attempts to defend her kill, the bear will kill her and eat her. Note, the bear will continue this only for a limited time before moving on....
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 15:56:52 GMT -5
More from that same WF Fake-Professor..... Continued.... 02 - THE SIZE OF LARGE BEARS KILLED BY TIGERS Tigers, as was stated before (Bromlej, 1965), are capable of killing a larger bear. The bear killed near the Tatibe River, at 158 cm. and approximately 170 kg., could have been a large subadult animal (post 448). Bromlej didn't state anything on the tigress. It is, however, known adult tigresses average between 115-120 kg. (post 83). As males, averaging between 175-195 kg. (WCS - Miquelle), are significantly larger, it is likely an experienced male tiger is capable of tackling bears well in excess of his own weight as well. It has to be stated, however, there is, apart from the incident mentioned by Mazak, no evidence. _____________________________________________ Fact: Wow! Those tiger fanboys just can't say enough about the "unseen/never measured or weighed tigress" who killed a fat adolescent male brown bear which was never weighed.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:04:17 GMT -5
Continued.....
There are, however, reliable reports on 'large brown bears' killed by tigers and most of these involved non-hibernating brown bears (Schatuns). As these will attack any animal, it could be some of the tigers attacked had no option but to engage the bear. As fights between animals of similar or near-similar size can go either way, some 'Schatuns', it is assumed, were killed. Encounters of this nature, however, can't be regarded as deliberate predatory attacks on healthy adult male brown bears. ________________________________ Fact: By "reliable reports" he means any report where the tiger bests the bear is (in his eyes) reliable. Fact: There is no confirmed account of a tiger ever killing a full-grown male brown bear
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:07:09 GMT -5
Continued........ It seems male tigers avoid even hibernating large brown bears most of the time. But most of the time isn't equal to always (Bromlej, 1965 and Kaplanov, 1948) and this observation can't be used to state male brown bears win mosts fights with tigers. If both are of similar size, it apparently depends (posts 55, 462, 463, 465, 470, 495 and 566). ___________________________________ Fact: There is no confirmed account of a full-grown male tiger fighting a full-grown male brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:13:01 GMT -5
Continued...... 03 - INTERACTIONS BETWEEN ADULT MALES
Adult male brown bears, according to Russian researchers, often follow tigers in order to feed on their kill. The outcome of the interactions isn't easy to describe. In some cases, one of the two is chased. In others, bears wait for their turn. Sometimes (in all four cases adult tigresses were involved) both feed simultanously. Every now and then, tigers, including adult males (one case was described in Chapter 19), are displaced by bears. Disputes erupt at times. The information available suggests brown bears are more agressive, whereas tigers (referring to all brown bears involved and not to male brown bears in particular) win most fights. The margins, however, seem to be small (posts 55, 463). Details on the animals involved in these fights (sex, age and size) often are absent. ________________________________ Fact: It is most likely true that a full-grown male tiger will relinquish his kill when a full-grown male brown bear approaches him with a carcass. Observations of leopard/sloth bear and cougar/black bear suggests this as normal cat behavior. Fact: Any fight where the tiger wins a fight with a full-grown brown bear - the bear is female.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:17:47 GMT -5
Continued......
Adult male brown bears and adult male tigers seem to avoid each other. In difficult circumstances (a lack of food), they sometimes clash near kill-sites. The observations made in over half a century suggest an all-out fight between a full-grown male tiger and a full-grown male brown bear has to be regarded as a singular event. The list of victims is very limited. ___________________________________
Fact: If it happens ever actually happens, then the tiger is truly desperate and will be killed by the bear. Fact: No full-grown male brown bear has ever been confirmed as being killed by a tiger.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:20:32 GMT -5
Continued....... Three fights were witnessed (Sysoev) or pieced together (Rukovsky). In two incidents, the tigers were young adults (3-4 years of age), whereas the brown bears (all three incidents) were described as 'large' or 'very large' animals. In all fights, the tigers were killed after a prolonged struggle. The margins, it seems, were small. _______________________________ Fact: The tigers were young and foolish (teenagers). Note: ALL adult bears are desrcibed as large or very large.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:23:18 GMT -5
Continued.......
The number of 'large' brown bears killed by tigers (referring to the five incidents mentioned above) is very limited as well. Two of the four bears killed were described as oldish animals. The information available suggests, as Gorokhov stated, inexperienced, young (tigers) or old (bears) animals seem to be more vulnarable than mature, healthy animals. ____________________________ Fact: All "large" bears killed by tigers (in the RFE) are either moon bears or female brown bears.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:27:00 GMT -5
Continued....... 04 - CONTRADICTORY INFORMATION (researchers)
The lack of clarity on the outcome of disputes near kill-sites is a result of a lack of specific information on one hand and contradictory statements of researchers on the other hand.
Miquelle, for instance, stated adult tigers are not always able to defend their kill against male brown bears (1) and brown bears have been known to kill tigers (2), but he also stated brown bears do not win all encounters, as some tigers had learned to hunt them (3). Which is not easy to understand, as there is a difference between open encounters and ambushes. His statements differ from KostoglodĀ“s, who (posts 164, 182) stated brown bears are capable to kill tigers (4). Rukovsky, on the other hand, stated an average tiger is always stronger than an average bear (5) and tigers won most of the fights he knew of (6). He, however, also mentioned an incident in which a young adult male tiger (post 70), after a prolonged battle, was killed by a very large brown bear (7). _____________________________
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:42:40 GMT -5
Quote: The lack of clarity on the outcome of disputes near kill-sites is a result of a lack of specific information on one hand and contradictory statements of researchers on the other hand.
Miquelle, for instance, stated adult tigers are not always able to defend their kill against male brown bears (1) and brown bears have been known to kill tigers (2), but he also stated brown bears do not win all encounters, as some tigers had learned to hunt them (3). Which is not easy to understand, as there is a difference between open encounters and ambushes. ____________________________________ Fact: An adult tiger can not always defend his kill from a young sub adult male brown bear, but sometimes can. Fact: A tiger might be killed by a young male brown bear at a kill site or he might be killed when ambushing a large brown she-bear. Fact: In most cases, when a male tiger ambushed a brown she-bear, the bear is killed. *Note: I see nothing contradictory.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:48:39 GMT -5
Continued....... His statements differ from KostoglodĀ“s, who (posts 164, 182) stated brown bears are capable to kill tigers (4). Rukovsky, on the other hand, stated an average tiger is always stronger than an average bear (5) and tigers won most of the fights he knew of (6). He, however, also mentioned an incident in which a young adult male tiger (post 70), after a prolonged battle, was killed by a very large brown bear (7). _________________________ Fact: A full-grown male brown bear is capable to kill a full-grown male tiger (roughly 19 out of 20 imo). Fact: A full-grown male tiger is always stronger than the brown she-bears he hunts. This is probably true. *Note: I see nothing contradictory.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:51:11 GMT -5
Continued......
The confusion not only is a result of a lack of specific information and contradictions. It also is likely the shape and the outcome of an encounter depends on the gender, age and size of both animals involved (8). In many cases, this information is lacking. ________________________________________ Fact: If you understand what bears a tiger actually hunts, then most information can be found by using your common sense.
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Post by brobear on Jul 14, 2024 16:57:19 GMT -5
Continued.......
Finally, it has to be stated the observations of modern research regarding the relation between tigers and bears do not confirm those of Kaplanov and Bromlej. Kaplanov, from the tracks in the snow, saw brown bears, one of these a very large animal, avoid tiger tracks (9), whereas modern researchers state brown bears often deliberatey follow the tracks of tigers (10). Bromlej stated tigers hunted even large hibernating brown bears (11), of which the largest were able to escape, but his observations were not confirmed by modern research (12). ________________________________________ Fact: Brown bears are extremely individualistic. Among them are the cowardly, the recklessly brave, the overly curious, the fun lovers, and the clowns, etc. So, one bear is frightened by tiger tracks while another will fearlessly follow the tracks. Fact: Some adult male tigers (imo) probably look for hibernating moon bears and brown adolescent and she-bears.
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Post by brobear on Jul 17, 2024 13:55:25 GMT -5
The Fake-Professor writes... "They, occasionally, hunt females up to about their own size, but adult male brown bears are avoided, biologists thought. I wrote 'thought', and not 'think', because they could have changed their mind after two incidents between male tigers and male brown bears made a few headlines. Meaning assumptions had an effect." ___________________________________________ Fact; Those two "incidents" have been debunked. ___________________________________________ Fake-Professor..... He also found a few interviews in which a well-known Russian biologist (A. Batalov) talked about a large male brown bear that followed an adult tigress with cubs for a prolonged period of time. The bear suddenly vanished. A few years later, Batalov said he was sure the big male was killed by tiger 'Ochkarik', the father of the cubs. Apex also found interviews with Russian tiger biologists saying male Amur tigers prevail in most interactions with even large bears. As their opinion isn't based on peer-reviewed documents, one has to assume it's based on observations of those they consider as reliable (hunters, rangers and peers). Peer-reviewed documents are extended and reliable, but that doesn't mean they cover all of it. Furthermore, not every biologist is active in the document department. ___________________________________________ Fact; quote, "He also found..." *He is the radical, juvenile, biased "teachers pet" fanboy. Quote; "Peer-reviewed documents are extended and reliable, but that doesn't mean they cover all of it. Furthermore, not every biologist is active in the document department." *This is total stinking bull crap and the Fake-Professor knew this as he was typing it. It would be a major accomplishment for a biologist to prove, once and for all, that a tiger is capable of killing a full-grown male brown bear. Quote; "A few years later, Batalov said he was sure the big male was killed by tiger 'Ochkarik', the father of the cubs." Fact; read in the next post what Batalov actually said.....
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Post by brobear on Jul 17, 2024 14:09:21 GMT -5
Quote; "He also found, and posted, interviews in which a well-known Russian biologist, A. Batalov, talked about 'Chlamyda'. That's the brown bear that followed tigress 'Rachel' and her cubs in 2017. Batalov said he was sure the big bear was killed and eaten by tiger 'Ochkarik', the father of the cubs of Rachel. __________________________________________________ Batalov: Absolutely! Absolutely! Yes, he was just pursuing her to take away the loot (food). Well, in the end, two tiger cubs disappeared somewhere, but the male who came, this famous one, our Ochkarik who, after all, well, saved them from this trouble, most likely he liquidated (destroyed) this bear. __________________________________________________ The Boogerman says - "Bataluv said he was sure the big bear was killed and eaten by tiger 'Ochkarik'. Batalov actually says - "most likely he liquidated (destroyed) this bear. *Apex Booger - there is a slight difference between "being sure" and "most likely." __________________________________________________ *Note: The opinion of a biologist is, as with anyone else, nothing more than an opinion. How can it be the most likely scenario when its never been confirmed to have ever happened before? Yes, this is what Batalov actually said ________________________________ IF Batalov had any evidence to back his opinions, he would definitely have filed a report. But, all he had was a biased opinion.
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Post by brobear on Jul 18, 2024 7:16:48 GMT -5
Here is another point which, it appears, no one has yet mentioned... Nature documentaries are a multi-million dollar industry. When something exciting happens in the natural world, the event is soon after followed by a nature documentary. A few examples are (1) A pride of lions target African elephants. (2) Orca kills great white shark. (2) Chimpanzee troop attacks a troop of gorillas. If a biologist really believes that a full-grown male brown bear was ambushed and killed by a tiger, and he has even the remotest evidence to back-up his claim, there would then certainly be a nature documentary. But no; There is no documentary about any of the so-called events claimed by the tiger fan-base.
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Post by brobear on Jul 18, 2024 12:04:41 GMT -5
The fanboyism on wildfact illustrated by peter (the alleged good, 'mature poster') by allowing mountainlord (the same guy that's been banned twice from that site before) is insane. Peter actually banned kingkodiak from that forum for simply posting a screenshot of his mail communication with a reputable expert but mountain lord, the fanboy who's conclusions go as far as tigresses hunting male brown bears (something never recorded in scientific literature) is not only getting allowed on that website, but also liked by peter himself and allowed on the extinction thread of all? Lol.... I'd honestly love if carnivora and peter deleted each others' forums in an epic duel, two fanboy propaganda forums getting wiped from the internet. Posted by a very intelligent highly educated poster. He is no longer active here, because I made a really stupid mistake once and gave him a warning about talking about a particular tiger fanboy.
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Post by brobear on Jul 18, 2024 12:09:45 GMT -5
Mountain Lord, Apex Titan, Boogerman... and about a half-dozen other handles.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 19, 2024 13:27:18 GMT -5
About half and a year ago, I joined carnivora and wildfact for exploring and posting, but, luckily, I soon found out what Crap kind of forums those were.
So support bears, you violate rules; you support tigers, you are consistent with rules since the forum's head is a tiger boy as well.
There, that shitlord is constantly spreading his fake propaganda that Ussuri natives called 'Master of the Taiga' only to tiger, not bears which is utterly wrong since we got the proof and many other users know that as well. Have Peter, portraiting himself knowledgeable ever curbed his fake propaganda or contradicted him? No, why, because he himself is the mannered face of Crap lord.
Basically, Wildfact is actually 'Catfact' where almost every (though not all) person is a biased car fan who faces no contradict no matter how Crap he posts.
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Post by brobear on Jul 24, 2024 3:43:33 GMT -5
A tiger fan will argue about the tiger's physical ability, his pure-predator killing instincts, his long teeth, and so on; attempting to be logical. Meanwhile, I have one very simple thing to say which I can post over and over and over and over: There is not even one single confirmed report, filed and peer reviewed, of a tiger ever killing a full-grown male brown bear. Any biologist, who can prove that a tiger has killed a healthy full-grown male brown bear will, without exception, file such a report.
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