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Post by Montezuma on Jul 21, 2022 16:48:18 GMT -5
Now let's debunk the tigress killing and eating bears from Mammals of Soviet. That was a off case because according to Siberian Tiger Project bears are generally killed by male adult tigers and only 2 cases of tigresses killing brown bears are recorded in literature. And in these 2 cases tigresses only killed small bears (one was a small denning female of 100kgs and the other a fat subadult bear because no adult Ussuri brown bear have lenght of 150 cm).
m.imgur.com/Tsmz9XN?r
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Post by arctozilla on Jul 21, 2022 17:00:18 GMT -5
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 21, 2022 17:04:15 GMT -5
"Tiger kills a large male Brown bear "In December 1959 on the river. A light tiger killed a large brown bear, and lived near him for about 10 days, until it was eaten." (Rakov, 1965) Here's the original Russian source: (Top paragraph) Here's the english translation to the Russian text: Account reported by the great biologist/zoologist - V.Mazak In his book he mentioned a case where a tiger had killed and eaten a very large male Brown bear along the Sungari river in Manchuria: This is the tiger that killed and ate the huge male brown bear, shot by the hunter 'Jankowski': This is the English translation of the German writing/paragraph marked in red on the page. Mazak added: To complete the information on this giant tiger, I should perhaps mention that Jankowski wrote that the tiger had killed and eaten a very large male brown bear a few days before he was shot, of which only a leg and the head, found by Jankowski, remained."... Here’s a sketch from Mazak, depicting a tiger killing an adult male brown bear: Another depiction: The Siberian tiger is able to kill the huge males of the Russian and Manchurian Brown bears: K.G Abramov also reported an instance of a tiger that killed a large male Brown bear." Now here are those unconfirmed accounts which tigerfan boys desparately try to proof them confirmed which are never approved by any biologist.
First of all, their is no detail of the fight. No more than guess. Only the dead bear was found and was supposed to be killed by tiger. There can be other situations like the tiger scavenged on a dead bear died due to old age or another bear etc. These are unreliable cases just like this case of an adult male tiger uporny which is thought to be killed by a tiger or BROWN BEAR. And we do not call it that it was confirmed that the male brown bear killed it since we accept it as unconfirmed because we are not as desparate as tigerkids are.
programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/25492
In 2021 a user shadow already mailed Dale Miquelle, one of the most important Russian authorities, about whenever he knows any reliable cases in which a tiger would have killed a male adult brown bear and the answer was that he doesn't know any.
m.imgur.com/zr4g8c7?r m.imgur.com/59dOJy9?r
So that means there are no confirmed cases of tigers killing adult male brown bears from 1933 to 2021. Fact!
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Post by arctozilla on Jul 21, 2022 17:07:52 GMT -5
This is from Amur Tiger Center. inf.news/en/animal/3d0133d929e4b114d3fda290d8890270.htmlIt says... No scientific record of tigers killing adult male brown bears or bears of higher weight. The “170 kg bear killed by the 120 kg tigress” is just a supplementation based on no evidence. A bear can prey on any animal of its habitat inc. the tiger.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 21, 2022 17:11:55 GMT -5
"Ussuri brown bears will feed on Amur tiger kills and are themselves a prey animal of the tigers."
That's a secondary and Crap source. It even says that Ussuri brown bears weigh up to 600 kg, which is false. Male Ussuri brown bears according to scientific studies they range from 260-321 kg.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 21, 2022 17:22:10 GMT -5
"From wildlife naturalist and explorer - Paul Rosolie
The Amur tiger dominates the Brown bears and wolves that share their range." This info isn't valid either because Paul Rosolie has no experience studying tigers and bears in RFE. His whole career is on studying Amazonic rainforests and only studied tigers in India, he never even step foot to Siberia to begin with so this info isn't valid. Also the book has nothing to do with Manchurian fauna, it is based on his life and experience in Amazonic rainforests.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rosolie
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 21, 2022 17:27:18 GMT -5
"Accounts from two renowned Russian biologists - V.G Heptner and A.A Sludskii
From the factual book:
Tigers tackle bears much larger than themselves. Bears are generally afraid of tigers, and run away from their tracks!
Brown bears fall victim to tigers more often than Black bears. The LARGEST of the Brown bears were attacked and chased from their dens by tigers and forced to become rovers!" Mistranslated account. The original source said that tigers can kill bears of almost the same weight, not larger than themselves, and via ambush.
So , the original source name is "Baikov 1925"
Here you go
"Маньчжурский тигр. Н.А. Байков. Харбин, 1925 г."
Особенно крупные тигры справляются и с медведем почти одного с ним веса. Для этого хищник выслеживает мишку и делает засаду обыкновенно на скале или в буреломе с подветренной стороны. Беспечный медведь, ничего не подозревая, медленно идет мимо засады, и тигр бросается на него сверху, хватает когтями одной лапы под подбородок, другой за горло и перекусывает шейные позвонки. Иногда медведь во-время замечает опасность, и тогда, если чувствует себя не в силах бороться с врагом, спасается на ближайшее дерево, куда тигр последовать за ним не может, не умея лазить по деревьям. Случается, что тигр терпеливо ожидает под деревом, пока медведю не надоест сидеть на дереве, и он не спустится вниз, но чаще в таких случаях тигр делает вид, что уходит, а сам следит за медведем, когда тот спустится с дерева, и устраивает ему снова засаду. Словом, ни одно животное в тайге Маньчжурии не гарантировано от нападения страшного хищника, начиная с медведя и кончая зайцем. Человек гарантирован менее всех, как самый беззащитный, если, конечно, он не имеет при себе солидного оружия в виде современной малокалиберной винтовки или штуцера-экспресс.
www.sixote-alin.ru/books/baikov/h1.html
Ane here is better * translation: "A rather big tiger would defeat a bear of almost the same weight. For this purpose, the predator tracks down the bear and makes an ambush, ordinarily on a rock or in wind-fallen trees, taking the side against the wind. Carelessly a bear slowly goes by an ambush, suspecting nothing, and the tiger rushes out on it from above, its one paw claws under the bear's chin, the other paw at the throat, and the tiger bites through the neck vertebrae. Sometimes the bear notices the danger in time, and not feeling able to struggle with this enemy, it escapes into the nearest tree, where the tiger cannot follow, being unable to climb the trees. It is possible that the tiger would patiently wait under the tree, till the bear is tired out of sitting in the tree and then it comes down, but more often in such cases the tiger would pretend to be leaving the place, whereas it would hide in a new ambush and watch the bear come down. In a word, there is no animal in the Manchurian taiga guaranteed against attack of the terrible predator, starting from the bear and finishing with the hare. The man is guaranteed less than others, as most defenseless, of course, if he is not armed with a good weapon such as a modern small caliber rifle or a carbine".
www.sixote-alin.ru/books/baikov/he1.html
One note: So Baikov state that tigers are able to kill bears of almost up to their own size via ambush .Notice the word "bear" .& "escapes into the nearest tree, where the tiger cannot follow, being unable to climb the trees"
credits to Warsaw
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 21, 2022 17:30:50 GMT -5
"A tiger Ochrakik killed the bear Ochalimd". Not only that but if the account is from 2017 then Alexander Batalov himself confirmed on a 2019 email that Chlamid was seen last year (2018) so the case was debunked.
m.imgur.com/KNMZB8T
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Post by brobear on Jul 21, 2022 22:32:53 GMT -5
"Bears have been known to simply give away their prey to an approaching tiger." First if all, its a Crap claim with no evidence or logic. Their is no evidence of this source since it never happens.
Brown bears are not hunters and neither are tiger kleptoparasites who remove bears from their kill. Instead its the bears who track tigers for prey and the tiger simply moves away instead of fight, including adult male tigers. Any doubt? Check out this thread showing tons evidence from biologists, note no Crap site is used as tigerboys do.
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/23/bear-kleptoparasitism-over-catsFurther evidence that a tiger will relinquish his kill over to an adult male brown bear is seen in the basic habits of cats in general. We have all seen videos and read reports of cougars walking away from their kills when either a grizzly or a black bear approaches. We have seen the same thing happen when a leopard sees a sloth bear coming his way. The leopard will relinquish his kill over to the bear. There is never a fight. The size ratio between an Ussuri brown bear and an Amur tiger is basically the same as between black bear and cougar or sloth bear and leopard. Note too that when a tiger sees a brown bear walking towards himself and his kill, and the tiger leaves without any struggle with the bear, no physical evidence is left behind to show a biologist that the tiger ever saw the bear. For this reason, I strongly believe that brown bears usurp the kills of tigers far more often than can be proven.
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Post by brobear on Jul 21, 2022 22:51:39 GMT -5
From Reply #48, "A rather big tiger would defeat a bear of almost the same weight. For this purpose, the predator tracks down the bear and makes an ambush, ordinarily on a rock or in wind-fallen trees, taking the side against the wind." *Note: "Almost the same weight." At equal HB length, a bear is heavier than a big cat. Therefore, at weight-parity, a tiger has a significant advantage in HB length and in bipedal height. In other words, even if a tiger were to ambush a bear equal in weight to himself, he is killing a bear smaller than himself. But, there is no confirmed account of a tiger ever killing a bear as heavy as himself. In fact, a tiger normally chooses a bear at least 100 less than his own weight. Conclusion; tigers hunt and ambush small bears. *FACT: There is no confirmed account of a tiger ever killing a full-grown male brown bear. *FACT: There is no confirmed account of a tiger ever killing a bear as heavy as himself.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 22, 2022 16:58:53 GMT -5
"From the documentary on animal FACTS - 'Everything You Didn't Know About Animals'... "In Russia, some bears have taken to living in tree nests like frightened birds, and its all because of the biggest cat on earth." Quote from Professor/Anthropologist - Dr Todd Sisotell: "People are scared of bears, well bears are scared of tigers." Quote from wildlife conservationist/biologist - Aletris Neils: "You think of bears as top of the food-chain, but not where there's tigers. Tigers have been documented killing both Black bears and Brown bears where they co-exist with them." Although it is from an animal documentry, yet these statements are very Crap, why? Lets me explain.
First of all, start with the last quote. Who says that bears are not apex predators because of tigers? Do tiger dominate them? Nope, and neither their predation effect on them. Bears in russian far east are still apex predators because even the smaller bear, the sloth bear is considered as an apex predator despite of tiger predation!
www.google.com/amp/s/www.downtoearth.org.in/news/wildlife-&-biodiversity/amp/sloth-bear-dhole-tiger-most-affected-among-apex-predators-globally-due-to-road-development-study-81660
And see here from panthera that apart from "Sun bears, Spectacled bears and Sloth bears", Asian black bears are considered apex predators.
panthera.org/newsroom/tigers-clouded-leopards-and-leopards-among-top-ten-apex-predators-most-threatened-global
Furthermore, according to the report from 2020, wolves, brown bears and tigers are considered large carnivores and as apex predators, not only the tiger.
www.researchgate.net/publication/346496013_Interspecific_Interactions_between_Brown_Bears_Ungulates_and_Other_Large_Carnivores
So all bear species are considered as apex predator no matter if they exist with tiger.
And see here by baikov, a russian naturalist.
"Apart from humans, bears have almost no enemies. Only young specimens are attacked by a tiger; in addition, they are greatly annoyed by some species of insects and endocavitary".
No enemy means you are an apex predator, right?
domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/58780/thread
So now they say that bears are afraid of tigers? So they about this:-
books.google.it/books?id=ctDKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PR2&dq=tigers%20are%20afraid%20of%20bears&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjMmPyR_-P4AhXlX_EDHXjYDNYQ6AF6BAgDEAM
And if tigers are not afraid of bears so why do tigers completely avoid adult male brown bears? Hahahaha
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/14/tigers-completely-avoid-adult-ussuri
Even the black bear isn't afraid of the tiger. They do not slways tree up for the same reason.
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/944/thread
Bears also tree up to feed on acorns etc and then make a nest just right over there is order to take rest just right to their food.
russia.wcs.org/en-us/About-Us/Publications/Tiger-Monograph.aspx
On the other hand, a himalyan black bear chased off a mature tigress and her cubs, meaning they arn't afraid of tigers instead tigers fear brown bears as shown above.
Even baikov said that tigers "hesitate when they attack bears.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 22, 2022 17:31:39 GMT -5
Its from a expert yet its a crap statement, you know why? Because its not based on facts. Tigers do not influence on bear's population anywhere in asia. If they do so why arn't bears exterminated? Why bears often kleptoparsite on tiger's meal that often if bears are expelled? So her statements are just unreal and i think she says that because she must be a great fan of your like most biologists. So why are there less bears in amur region? Here are the reasons:-
1#. Traditional hunting. Bears occupied a large role in amur native religion so they are hunted for there body parts.
2#. They are numerously killed as a result of modern hunting. See here that over 125 bears are killed annually in amur region. Thats a big amount for endangered species.
So her statements have no proof. Tigers do not influence bear population. Tigerfans are always here to believe on unfactual thing. hahaha
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Post by brobear on Jul 23, 2022 1:38:25 GMT -5
"A tiger Ochrakik killed the bear Ochalimd". Not only that but if the account is from 2017 then Alexander Batalov himself confirmed on a 2019 email that Chlamid was seen last year (2018) so the case was debunked.
m.imgur.com/KNMZB8T
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Post by arctozilla on Jul 23, 2022 2:49:28 GMT -5
"From the documentary on animal FACTS - 'Everything You Didn't Know About Animals'... "In Russia, some bears have taken to living in tree nests like frightened birds, and its all because of the biggest cat on earth." It says "some bears" not all bears and he's referring to Asiatic black bears because "climbing trees to escape predators" is their typical behaviour.
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Post by arctozilla on Jul 23, 2022 3:24:22 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jul 23, 2022 4:33:00 GMT -5
Reply #55; the most arboreal bears are the sun bear and the Andean bear. I'm not sure that the Ussuri black bear actually builds a nest in a tree. Possibly true, but I have never read this.
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Post by brobear on Jul 23, 2022 4:39:13 GMT -5
See what it just said: "bear hast time to climb a tree to escape the tiger" which is the typical behaviour of black bears, LOL. This "report" has a lot of holes in it. I agree that the tiger, more often than not, will kill a black bear. But, as this reads, sometimes the black bear kills the tiger. The idea that a tiger will fight and kill a black bear and then just walk away from the carcass; I do not believe this for a second. First of all, unless it is a very small adolescent or a very small she-bear, the tiger will only make physical contact with the bear by ambush. Second, the tiger is not going to just walk away from a fresh carcass.
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Post by brobear on Jul 23, 2022 13:13:57 GMT -5
By Peter: Tiger 'Ochkarik'
Members of forums interested in tigers and bears in the Russian Far East often refer to the size of adult male Amur tigers and adult male Ussuri brown bears. Most of them, for reasons discussed in my previous post, think it would take quite a tiger to kill an adult male brown bear, but reliable information (referring to recent newspaper reports, articles, scientific publication and books) suggests this is not the case.
Let's take the tiger A. Batalov knows quite well as an example. Tiger 'Ochkarik' was never weighed, but Batalov has weighed quite a few bears. If he says 'Ochkarik' ranges between 160-180 kg, we have to assume he's quite close. In at least two interviews, Batalov said this male tiger killed and completely ate the very large bear that tormented tigress 'Rochelle' for quite some time. This bear, called 'Chlamyda' on account of his size, was estimated at 350-400 kg, if not more.
Although Batalov, as far as I know, didn't respond to the questions of our member 'Nyers', we can't be sure 'Ochkarik' really killed 'Chlamyda'. It is, however, clear the bear he killed was a large one. So large, Batalov hardly recognized 'Ochkarik' after he had eaten the bear. Does this prove an adult male Amur tiger is able to kill a larger (heavier) male brown bear? No. The reason? No hard evidence and no details. _______________________________________________________________________________ 'Ochkarik' weighed from 160 to 180 kg or from 353 to 397 pounds. In at least two interviews, Batalov said this male tiger killed and completely ate the very large bear that tormented tigress 'Rochelle' for quite some time. This bear, called 'Chlamyda' on account of his size, was estimated at 350-400 kg, if not more. ( 772 to 882 pounds ). *Fact: I have seen absolutely no reports by the hand of Batalov himself stating that Chlamyda killed a large male brown bear. Nothing! Everything is second-hand ( he said she said ). The tiger was seen with a full belly after eating a big meal. He might have killed a she-bear, a black bear, or perhaps a wild boar. It's a shame that even the so-called elite posters will grasp at every straw and jump to conclusions. No carcass of a bear was discovered.
If Batalov had any evidence and truly believed that this big male tiger had killed a huge male brown bear, he would have filed a report. But, he did not. ( see also Reply #49 )
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Post by arctozilla on Jul 25, 2022 8:05:45 GMT -5
Those bears were probably all subadults and females. Kucherenko was one of the biologists who reported those fights and according to him, tigers mainly kill small bears. Of the 17 cases of tiger-brown bear fights that I know for certain in the Sikhote-Alin in 1965-1976 . at eight the animals dispersed, at six the tiger killed the bear, and at three the bear defeated. In addition, nine cases of attacks on bears in dens were recorded, in which the tiger crushed and ate seven adult animals and nine cubs. Careful observations nevertheless indicate that in the relationship between the Amur tiger and the waking brown bear, the latter is more aggressive, and he chases the tiger and gets involved in a fight at a time when hungry, as a rule, in autumn, when nuts and acorns are in short supply. This is most typical for connecting rods.The tiger voluntarily attacks mainly small bears, knowingly confident of victory. The tigress, protecting the cubs, fights with any bear and dies more often. According to the materials of the zoologist V.E. Kostogloda, of the 28 cases of fights of these predators studied by him, the priority in attack was on the side of the brown bear; in 11 cases the tiger won, in 9 - the bear , 8 fights ended in vain. www.litmir.me/br/?b=559283&p=32 Siberian Tiger Project aka Seryodkin et al. also reported those fights and here's what they have to say... According to Seryodkin et al. most of the brown bears killed by tigers are females and subadults. www.google.com/search?q=most+of+the+bears+killed+by+tigers+are+generally+females+seryodkin&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rvo3&biw=393&bih=732&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALiCzsaDH00XVoqh1PDJdJ9Q6iFPLhiyQA%3A1658754200689&ei=mJTeYtXMKZ_Bxc8PvYqMmAI&oq=most+of+the+bears+killed+by+tigers+are+generally+females+seryodkin&gs_lcp=Cg9tb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXNlcnAQAzIECB4QCjoFCCEQoAFQqA5Y1zBgqT5oAHAAeACAAYsCiAHDDpIBBTAuNy40mAEAoAEBqgEZbW9iaWxlLWd3cy13aXotc2VycC1t2Rlc8ABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-serpAccording to Dale Miquelle, the director of WCS Russia, there are no reliable cases of tigers killing adult male brown bears. Check reply #44.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 26, 2022 2:47:31 GMT -5
Yes, these are all young bears and females and even black bears. If there were adult males, so i think they must be mentioned.
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