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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 18, 2021 5:43:19 GMT -5
I mean, shouldn't it all depend on the individual and subspecies in question? On average, the mainland bengal tigers are heavier than south african lion and seem to have a less lanky, more bulky built hence I'd favor a tiger as far as physicality goes. It has been seen that lots of male lions are exceptionally bold specimens with little resistance when it comes to engaging in dangerous situations while tigers are more hesistant, so if you were to put the two together in captivity you'd probably observe the lions being more dominant and aggressive and the tigers generally avoiding battle, does this prove anything? No, it doesn't. I personally hold the opinion that a average sized mainland bengal tiger specimen would beat an average sized south african lion, but at parity weights it'd be a coin toss, depending on the individual themselves and their ability in combat. Welcome back. It is good to read your feedback . Edit: Do you have any size comparisons between the two?
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Post by nocapakabl on Sept 18, 2021 5:51:34 GMT -5
I mean, shouldn't it all depend on the individual and subspecies in question? On average, the mainland bengal tigers are heavier than south african lion and seem to have a less lanky, more bulky built hence I'd favor a tiger as far as physicality goes. It has been seen that lots of male lions are exceptionally bold specimens with little resistance when it comes to engaging in dangerous situations while tigers are more hesistant, so if you were to put the two together in captivity you'd probably observe the lions being more dominant and aggressive and the tigers generally avoiding battle, does this prove anything? No, it doesn't. I personally hold the opinion that a average sized mainland bengal tiger specimen would beat an average sized south african lion, but at parity weights it'd be a coin toss, depending on the individual themselves and their ability in combat. Welcome back. It is good to read your feedback . Edit: Do you have any size comparisons between the two? How do we insert images into posts on here on phone? I currently do not have access to my PC so I'm using my phone.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 18, 2021 6:28:50 GMT -5
Welcome back. It is good to read your feedback . Edit: Do you have any size comparisons between the two? How do we insert images into posts on here on phone? I currently do not have access to my PC so I'm using my phone. Are you using i phone? If you are, you might have to click the square box which says Desktop at the bottom right of this forum. Then you can insert pictures as you do on a computer. Otherwise post the image link between [/img]
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Post by Montezuma on Oct 9, 2021 19:40:18 GMT -5
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Post by theundertaker45 on Oct 10, 2021 5:48:38 GMT -5
Montezuma Lion is more robust and a better grappler? May be your opinion but none of this is true; when looking at scientific studies it is indicated that jaguars/tigers are the best technicians among modern pantherines and it's the Bengal tiger who carries more mass per length as well as more mass per shoulder height than the African lion. I'd recommend you to look up information by addressing reasonable sources and not some Tapatalk forum managed by lion/tiger fanatics. Lions fight more often but does that indicate they are the better fighter? No, it's not about quantity.
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2021 4:01:28 GMT -5
Quote: "There are accounts of lions killed male tigers, also in wild." *This was discussed in depth in the old yuku A.V.A. decades ago. No, there are no verified accounts of a lion vs tiger fight in the wild. There was one video which claimed to be a lion and tiger caught on camera ( probably 1930s ) which proved to actually be an arranged pit-fight. We have no records of any lion/tiger interactions in the wild. Those interested ( including myself ) have had high hopes of Asiatic lions being given more land to roam in Eurasia. However, this appears to be a pipe dream.
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Post by brobear on Oct 14, 2021 12:05:21 GMT -5
If there is ever a confrontation between lions and a tiger in the wild, it will most likely be these two subspecies. However, the chances of this ever happening seem to be very slim.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2021 4:33:29 GMT -5
One reason why this topic is endless circle is, that there is no good studies comparing these cats what comes to strength and muscularity etc. There is something here and something there, when looking at available information and then things are twisted by many who are posting in animal forums. When people quote some "animal expert" they use some vague and inadvertent statement like it would be carefully considered and well studied.
For instance often is said, that tigers would have bigger muscle density. But it´s not based on anything real as far as i know. Most likely to it, that tigers forelimbs look a bit thicker. Then again when there is a healthy 200 kg lion and tiger, they have overall same muscle percentage. So it can be asked, that in what way bigger muscle density and to what such statement is based on? I haven´t seen anything real to back up such claim. Same with claim, that tiger would have bigger muscle percentage. Different sources with some results are around the same, both seem to have normally around 60% muscle from their body weight. Pretty logical thing, when knowing that if skinned it´s not easy to say which one is which, if looking at skinned body of a tiger and lion. Very similar cats overall. When same muscle percentage it gives a good reason to assume, that if one has slightly more in one place, then another has to have a bit more in some other place.
Also when looking at things which they do and demand strength, I have never seen a tiger doing something what lion haven´t done and same goes other way too. Both can drag quite similar kind of carcasses and with very similar looking effort too. There are some magnificent stories how big cats "carry" or drag carcasses like nothing, but when looking real footage it´s easy to see how much exaggerated those stories are. Actually I have seen from lions more impressive performances what comes to strength than from tigers, but it is natural because there is so much more footage from lions. I´m sure, that tigers with similar size and in similar terrain could do the same.
I don´t go further now, but my "challenge" to anyone is. If claiming that tiger is stronger or that lion is stronger, prove it with solid proof, not with some "half-a**" "expert opinion" based on guesses or estimations. So far I haven´t seen such proof from anyone, only same jargon time after time. I have tried to find some solid proof myself too, but I haven´t found nothing really solid. Looks like that not interesting question to look closer to biologists to study it properly so that they could give some clear results, which would be double and triple checked.
Many posters have strong opinions, but when looking at real biologists it´s a different story. Opinions there too, but opinions aren´t same as facts.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2021 4:56:26 GMT -5
A bit about dragging, some amazing stories tell how big cats do it easily. Well, it´s not that easy, it demands some effort.
'
There are some similar kind of videos with tigers. When dragging uphill, hard work, when terrain is flat, it´s easier. No matter if lion or tiger filmed.
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Post by brobear on Nov 3, 2021 1:51:59 GMT -5
My personal opinion: The most hotly debated ( argued ) wild animal face-off is and always will be lion vs tiger. The two opposing sides of the big cat fanboys fill page-after-page with crap slinging, lying, and posting fake data. Fact #1- There are no recorded events of a lion and a tiger fighting in the wild. Fact #2- Any fight between a lion and a tiger could easily go either way. Neither big cat is dominant over the other. The victor of a fight would be a matter of individual animal rather than species.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 15:52:59 GMT -5
My personal opinion: The most hotly debated ( argued ) wild animal face-off is and always will be lion vs tiger. The two opposing sides of the big cat fanboys fill page-after-page with crap slinging, lying, and posting fake data. Fact #1- There are no recorded events of a lion and a tiger fighting in the wild. Fact #2- Any fight between a lion and a tiger could easily go either way. Neither big cat is dominant over the other. The victor of a fight would be a matter of individual animal rather than species. I would add, that while there are some clips from fights in captivity, many times those are from short brawls in which fights aren´t too serious. One or another giving up and retreating before anything serious happens. Maybe a paw swipe or some with no real effect. When talking about paw swipes, those are usually more cosmetics than anything more. A lion can take swipe from tiger like nothing and same goes vice versa. Only if claws hit some "sweet spot" swipe can cause some reasonable "damage". I´ve seen only one clip in which paw swipe seemed to have some real effect and it´s from a confrontation with two Asiatic lions. Dominant one managed to swipe other one so hard, that it fell to the ground hard. And there are countless video clips in which tigers and lions swipe other tigers and lions. Then there are some clips with more serious fights and in those big cats always are wrestling and biting each others. When both are standing it´s more show than real fight. It can lead to serious fight if neither one gives up, but usually at some point other one retreats. When some people say how tiger is better "boxer" because tiger has that style to stand on hind legs, I personally don´t take such statements seriously, because serious fights aren´t fought in that way because tiger can´t harm lion with swipe any more than lion can do it to the tiger. Unless claws hit eye, which most like ends fight. Many one eyed big cats in wild tell that story. But back to clips with serious fights. They tell to me only one thing (because existing ones are short and not showing all in most cases), fights are fierce and going back and forth making it pretty impossible to predict how it might end. While male lions can look time to time lazy and even slow, they are nothing like that when they go to all in fight. They are just as fierce as any big cat and tiger has to give all it can with lion and outcome can be anything. Those few clips have convinced me of only one thing. Most old stories and "descriptions" concerning fights between tigers and lions in captivity are total crap. When comparing those stories to real filmed fights, contradiction is overwhelming. There is no easy way for a tiger to kill a lion and same vice versa. It´s hard work and no easy victory offered.
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Post by brobear on Dec 29, 2021 5:52:53 GMT -5
Can tigers survive in Africa?
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Post by brobear on Dec 29, 2021 9:02:01 GMT -5
Reply #91 video... I can agree to most of this... except where it is said that the Amur tiger weighs 700 pounds. TRUTH: Biologists would be hard-pressed to find a 500 pound tiger in the Russian taiga - much less a 700 pound behemoth of a tiger.
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Post by brobear on Jan 7, 2022 23:36:47 GMT -5
Remove the hide from the lion and from the tiger and even the experts have trouble telling which is which.
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Post by brobear on Jan 18, 2022 4:49:04 GMT -5
Definition of desperate wishful thinking = 600 pound lions and 700 pound tigers being normal in the wild. Average mature Amur tiger (historical) - 477.3 pounds.
Average mature Amur tigress (historical) - 303.1 pounds.
Average mature Amur tiger (contemporary) - 418.9 pounds.
Average mature Amur tigress (contemporary) - 266.8 pounds.
Average mature Amur tiger (general) - 447.5 pounds.
Average mature Amur tigress (general) - 284.4 pounds.
Average mature Bengal tiger - 463 pounds.
Average mature Bengal tigress - 304.2 pounds.
Average mature Caspian tiger: 434.3 pounds.
Average mature Caspian tigress: 266.8 pounds.
Average mature Indochinese tiger: 425.5 pounds.
Average mature Indochinese tigress: 253.5 pounds
Average mature South China tiger: 335.1 pounds.
Average mature South China tigress: 228 pounds.
Average mature Malayan tiger: 265.9 pounds.
Average mature Malayan tigress: 217.2 pounds.
Average mature Sumatran tiger: 271.2 pounds.
Average mature Sumatran tigress: 216.1 pounds.
Average mature Javan tiger: 276.7 pounds.
Average mature Javan tigress: 209.4 pounds.
Average mature Bali tiger: 209.4 pounds.
Average mature Bali tigress: 159.8 pounds. ________________________________________
Average mature South African lion - 421 pounds. (n=80)
Average mature South African lioness - 284.4 pounds. (n=111)
Average mature Namibian/Zimbabwe lion - 434.3/423.3 pounds. (n=23/59)
Average mature Namibian/Zimbabwe lioness - 313.1/313.1 pounds. (n=37/33)
Average mature East African lion - 383.6 pounds. (n=71)
Average mature East African lioness - 266.8 pounds. (n=42)
Average mature Botswana lion - 405.6 pounds. (n=22)
Average mature Botswana lioness - 310.9 pounds. (n=14)
Average mature Ethiopian lion - 302.5 pounds. (n=9)
Average mature Ethiopian lioness - 285.7 pounds. (n=9)
Average mature West African lion - 348.3 pounds. (n=8)
Average mature West African lioness - 211.6 pounds. (n=7)
Average Asian lion - 360.2 pounds. (n=9)
Average Asian lioness - 256.4 pounds. (n=14) ( we have no confirmed weights for the extinct Barbary lion - therefore weights are purely guesswork ).
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Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2022 4:08:21 GMT -5
The Next Big Thing: www.deviantart.com/hodarinundu/art/Pleistocene-Bornean-Tiger-878597667 A colossal Bornean tiger over its prey, a small rhinoceros. Fossil remains indicate the tiger existed in Borneo in prehistoric times. This drawing is based on a fossil mandible with overwhelming dimensions; the live animal has been estimated at around 480 kg, making it one of the largest cats of all times. It would've lived in a time in which Borneo was still connected to the mainland, which makes sense considering the huge tiger specimens found elsewhere in Asia. As Borneo became isolated, the tigers seemingly shrank as suggested by more recent remains, more similar in size to modern day tigers. It seems the giant tiger would've been similar to today's Sumatran tiger, only huge. *480 kg = 1,050 pounds. Now, consider when animal forums was bombarded with the news of Arctotherium angustidens, the giant South American short-faced bear. In the beginning he weighed well over 2-tons ( 4,000 pounds ). He was reportedly much larger than Arctodus simus. Well, the North American short-faced bear is back on top ( barely ) and angustidens' weight has been chopped in half. Even before the giant of South America, ( I was active in the old AVA during both of these "Next Big Thing" stories ), there was the giant polar bear, Ursus maritimus tyrannus. He was reported as being the biggest bear ever. You guessed it - bigger than Arctodus simus. His weight was estimated to be 2400 pounds. Zoom back into 2022, and Arctodus simus of North America is still the biggest bear known to date. Give the "Giant Tiger from Borneo" some time.
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Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2022 12:20:03 GMT -5
Looking at the lions and tigers at: Size Comparisons (The Grand Arena and others) - Reply #1784 / Reply #1785, the South Chinese tiger appears to be the 'poster child' for the average male tiger at 152 kg or 335 pounds. As for the lions, I averaged them all up to 174.6 kg or roughly 385 pounds. This would make the East African lion the 'poster child' for the average lion. *Note: I'm sure that these averages are not accurate down to the pound, but the full-grown males of both the lion and the tiger, each as a species ( all subspecies entered into the averaging ) each weigh well below the 400-pound mark.
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Post by brobear on Jan 21, 2022 1:40:06 GMT -5
domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/773/weight-collection?page=1 Reply #1 and Reply #2: Average Panthera tigris tigris (subspecies, extant, concluded out of all former subspecies) - 387.4 pounds for males and 257.5 pounds for females. Average Panthera tigris sondaica (subspecies, extant, concluded out of all former subspecies) - 271.2 for males and 216.1 pounds for females. Average Panthera tigris (species, extant, concluded out of the two present subspecies) - 329.3 pounds for males and 236.8 pounds for females. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Average Panthera leo melanochaita (subspecies, extant, concluded out of all the former subspecies inhabiting East/South Africa) - 388.3 pounds for males and 291.1 pounds for females (n=264 and n=246) Average Panthera leo leo (subspecies, extant, concluded out of all the former subspecies inhabiting Asia/West Africa) - 354.3 pounds for males and 234 pounds for females (n=17 and n=21) Average Panthera leo (species, extant, concluded out of the two present subspecies) - 371.3 pounds for males and 262.6 pounds for females (n=282 and n=267)
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Post by brobear on Jan 29, 2022 16:25:02 GMT -5
If you were to venture over to ( regardless of the forum's name ) big cat fan dominated animal face-off forums, you will find that the topic of 'Lion vs Tiger' is the most heated topic there. It's never ending. Both sides are absolutely sure that they are right. Their favorite pass-time is slinging crap at each other. If you venture into a pure-tiger fanboy site, there you will find the one-sided opinions and fantasies of how a tiger is undefeatable among the Carnivores. On a pure-lion dominated forum, you will find the same thing, where the lion rules. Both sides copy and paste misleading information as well as fake information. It's not like 'Tiger vs Grizzly' where we actually have a sure-fire winner. There is little difference in the size of a lion compared with a tiger. Any fight between a male African lion and a male Amur or Bengal tiger might go either way, depending on the particular individuals. This is why I voted 50/50. As for 'Tiger vs Grizzly'... with tiger fanboys, the gloves are off and they spread fake information. Even those forums which do not allow full-fledged animal face-off topics, being a big cat oriented site, allows the fake or misleading information to go on. Here, at the Domain of the Bears, we keep it honest.
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Post by brobear on Jan 31, 2022 11:50:31 GMT -5
Comparing Asiatic lions to Bengal tigers:
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