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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 21, 2021 20:07:17 GMT -5
Reply 38. Brown bear fights seldom lead to death because of their diet too. Bears have survived with jaws blasted off just by living off berries and vegitation. Lion fights lead to more death as a severely injured lion might lead them having broken jaws (starving to death).
Lions being more territorial will engage in territorial battle more often. There also more deaths because of gang fights. Tigers also engage in territorial battles often.
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Post by brobear on Aug 2, 2021 3:38:02 GMT -5
tipsto.live/2021/06/17/symphytum/?cnt=28275&u=done Lion Falls In Love With White Tiger, They Escape Zoo Together. Meet Cameron the lion and Zabu the white tigress who are crazy in love with each other. Life hasn’t always been kind to the two of them, they were bred at a zoo in New England for one reason only, to make ligers. During this time, Cameron was 200 pounds underweight and Zabu had genetic flaws caused by breeding. Thankfully, they were both rescued a few years later. “When Zabu and Cameron were rescued, we constructed a large natural enclosure for the two of them to share since they are truly bonded as a couple.” But after a little while, Cameron was getting very possessive of Zabu, which meant he was a threat to his keepers. “We had only two choices; separate him from Zabu forever or neuter him. So they chose to neuter him, which meant he, unfortunately, lost his majestic mane but is a small price to pay to stay with his true love, writes kingdomstv.com.
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Post by brobear on Aug 2, 2021 3:54:26 GMT -5
About Reply #41 - *Personally, I stand strongly against the breeding of ligers and tigons. Why not instead breed healthy lions and tigers for the purpose of repopulating low-population areas?
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 2, 2021 4:40:09 GMT -5
Ligers might be huge but they are surprisingly unhealthy.
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Post by brobear on Aug 2, 2021 11:25:58 GMT -5
Ligers might be huge but they are surprisingly unhealthy. I have no idea of their general health status, but they serve no purpose. Neither to man-kind nor the natural world.
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Post by brobear on Aug 2, 2021 18:14:35 GMT -5
In Asia, even though in some locations there were both lions and tigers, fights were very likely extremely rare. These rare events would have taken place where forest meets open country. In such a location, the territory of a lion might cross into a small portion of the tiger's territory. A territorial fight ( IMO ) would be more often a head-on confrontation rather than one ambushing the other. Also ( IMO ) such a territorial fight would be to the death. Note that 'Mother Nature' rarely gives us a fair fight. One-on-one, the tiger will ( more often than not ) have a substantial weight advantage. However, even though male Asiatic lions do not form large coalitions as their African brothers are known to do in some cases, there will often be a pair of Asiatic lions. In such a case, the lions will have the advantage.
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Post by brobear on Aug 7, 2021 4:52:41 GMT -5
African Lion vs Bengal Tiger... a popular face-off topic. It is argued that lions are taller while tigers are more "long-bodied" big cats. ( IMO ) I hear people talk about the long-bodied Dachshund or Basset Hound. The truth is, these dog breeds are not long-bodied but rather short-legged. The same holds true for the tiger. Lions, being adapted to more wide-open country, have longer legs. Which big cat species is the biggest should be determined by the weight of a typical individual. Which has the greater girth should be determined by a healthy specimen of each at equal head-and-body length. Normally, and logically, the animal with the greatest girth will prove to be the stronger of the two.
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Post by tom on Aug 7, 2021 12:34:23 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Aug 7, 2021 17:43:12 GMT -5
Quote: "So it would seem even well renowned animal trainers can't all agree on who is the better fighter. I can't help but wonder if they are not simply choosing their favorite Cat." *That is my thoughts exactly. More than likely, one or the other will win this fight more often than the other, one-on-one and at similar size. But, I would not wager either way. I feel certain ( IMO ) that neither big cat would win every fight nor any huge percentage of fights. They seem to me to be just too similar and too evenly matched. But this is merely my personal opinion on this topic. *Edit and add: the fanboys on either side of this thousand-year-old debate make outrageous claims. Lion fanboys like to claim that a lion has a surplus of courage while they also like to call tigers cowards. Well, I have to question these claims. A lion is indeed a courageous predator. Any animal that is willing to ambush an African buffalo has a surplus of courage. But, I also see lions, while out hunting, walk past the adult elephant, the rhinoceros, or a bull hippopotamus. I once watched as a huge ( possibly Gustave himself ) Nile crocodile displaced an entire pride of lions ( including more than one male ) from a carcass without even putting up a fight ( documentary I watched in 2012 ). So, like all other predators, the lion will size-up any potential prey before making a decision. The tiger has been known to stalk and ambush water buffalo and gaur, both of which are even bigger than their African cousin. Therefore, I have not seen any real evidence which would suggest that a lion has greater courage than a tiger.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 5:52:58 GMT -5
It most likely depends on the individuals. It doesn't matter what lion and tiger fanboys say, they're completely uncivilized persons.
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Post by tom on Aug 15, 2021 9:12:22 GMT -5
Agreed. I've always said you may have bold individuals as well as passive individuals. If you recall the mapogos Lion coalition you had one male (Mr. T) who was a very bold and aggressive individual when compared to his brothers. So bold that I saw some pictures of him when he was a young cub with his father as his father was feeding on a kill. Depending on the size of the kill the pride male usually will eat first unless it's an exceptionally large kill in which there is enough to go around for everyone. Anyway, as his father was feeding alone and this little tiny cub (Mr. T) walks right up underneath his fathers head and starts helping himself. NO timid little cub here, he boldly goes up and helps himself with no fear. That boldness stayed with Mr. T throughout his life and when his time finally came he went down fighting boldly against 4-5 rival males simultaneously. Fear never was never an issue with Mr. T
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 10:14:11 GMT -5
What comes to... well, courage or something like it, I do consider male lions quite high. Over tigers in this category. Reasons are many, for instance what brobear mention about crocodiles, in most clips which I´ve seen male lions eat first and there can be a lot of crocodiles waiting their turn nearby. In some clips they can be seen to go away and then some big crocodile comes there to eat, but when looking closer, those bellies.... many videos with headline "crocodile takes carcass from lion" etc. should actually be "gorged male lion doesn´t care anymore and goes to sleep and digest". And some of those crocodiles waiting their turns have been absolute monsters. Still not challenging male lions, while they can be very arrogant when male lions leave the place and only lionesses. In many carcasses picking order is, that first male lion or lions eat, then crocodiles and lionesses start to argue who are next. It´s very fascinating to watch those situations. In one documentary a young male lion cub, not yet even size of lioness, ate on carcass ashore (it didn´t notice how other lions left the place). It continued even though crocodiles were coming closer and closer. It ate there despite crocodiles and it didn´t give carcass to them. Only when a hyena clan came there it finally chose to retreat. It might have ended back, but when it was fleeing from the place lionesses came back and hyenas had to stop chasing it. But it was astonishing to see so young lion to be almost indifferent what come to crocodiles, not going anywhere because of them. Crazy or confident... or overconfident, it can be called in many ways, but it was very impressive. What comes to many youtube video headlines, they are quite rubbish. For instance "honey badger fights lion pride" means "lion cubs play with honey badger". But I guess, that unusual and exaggerated headlines are good clickbaits. But to lions, there is for instance footage in which a male lion and lioness eat on buffalo carcass when around them is nine crocodiles and some big ones. Male lion eats there lying partially over carcass and in one point casually slaps one crocodile, which takes a snap too close. And continues then eating like nothing special happened, like father slapping hand of greedy child. That kind of arrogance in so calm way is very unique. I don´t think that even brown bear could be as calm in such situation. I have read how some guides are astonished of it, how confident lions can be every now and then. Tiger surrounded by crocodiles would most likely either attack crocodile or go away, I don´t think that it could behave in the same way as lions can be seen doing many times. It doesn´t make tiger a coward in my eyes, they are more like normal big cats, lions then again have unique lifestyle among big cats and male lions role is also unique. I think, that it has something to do with their behavior and confidence. Naturally there are differences. In one documentary there were two male lions with their pride. More dominant one disappeared during his patrol. Other one was for some time "lost", it couldn´t handle to be pride leader and it was filmed when it was alone and confused. After some time it was hungry and there was some carcass, a hippo I think, in the middle of the river. It took some time, but then that male lion seemed to get things in order in his head and he went in the middle of the night alone to eat that carcass. And there were crocodiles in the river, despite it he took his time and ate and crocodiles didn´t approach. Soon after that it went back to seek his pride and they reunited, him now as pride leader. It was one of the most interesting documentaries I´ve seen concerning lions. Anyway that confidence and calmness how male lions can be seen many times in situations is very fascinating, imo, and when talking about certain kind of courage and kind of natural dominance, in my mind I give it to male lions, even though some lionesses seem to have same kind of mentality time to time. I can understand why brave people are called "lionhearts" after watching footage and documentaries of different animals, there is something unique in lions. While there are naturally clips showing how lion(s) (as all animals time to time) flee, there are still so many clips showing them to behave in fascinating ways. Well, that was longer text, but yeah, I see lion as more brave big cat. But it doesn´t mean that I would see tiger in some way bad or worse, it has different lifestyle.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 10:23:26 GMT -5
This is that one clip which I mentioned in my posting.
At 0:46-0:49 male lion slaps a bit of one crocodile, which backs off a bit and lion continues eating. But the way how calm lions are is impressive to see.
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Post by brobear on Aug 15, 2021 12:52:13 GMT -5
Well, anyway, I watched that Documentary only once, in 2012, and haven't seen it since. But, the sight of that gigantic crocodile just ambling up and displacing the lion pride stayed with me. I remember that there was no body of water to be seen in the event. I also remember that the lions never lifted a paw against the huge reptile. And, I remember the thought going through my mind, "is this Gustave?" Yes, it is possible that the lions simply decided that they had fed enough. Nevertheless, it was the crocodile who set the exact time for the lions to depart from the carcass. My thoughts on the lion being so bold, he lives in open country where conducting a clean ambush is more difficult than in a forest environment. Therefore, he is subject to more face-to-face confrontations with other animals. This too is why the grizzly was so bad-tempered and considered extremely dangerous. Unlike the black bear who always lived in wooded areas, and would scamper up a tree, the grizzly would charge when feeling threatened. But, ever since the manufacturing of modern rifles, the grizzly has learned a certain amount of fear for mankind.
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Post by brobear on Aug 15, 2021 13:06:32 GMT -5
I'm not saying that it was actually Gustave on the ( lost ) documentary. But, it was a similar monster who dwarfed the lions.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2021 13:22:34 GMT -5
brobearI have no doubts, that sometimes lions look at some big crocodile and think, ok, he eats now and go away. A crocodile like Gustave is a serious threat. My main point was, that surprisingly often especially male lions are first ones in picking order even when there are big crocodiles present. Lionesses are in clearly weaker situation, crocodiles don´t respect them in any way nearly as much as male lions. Earlier I thought that no predator would challenge big crocodiles when competing for food, but lions have proved me wrong. There is one clip in which lion pride is approaching a carcass located on the other side of the river or something like that and crocodiles are eating there. When lions swim, one lioness seems to get caught by a crocodile and drowned. Not too surprising considering it, that in the middle of the night and deep water. But what was surprising to me was, that pride male didn´t stop while other lionesses didn´t approach more. That male lion went alone to the carcass and started to eat it, crocodiles didn´t challenge him. It´s from some documentary. And even though some documentaries are fixed and fabricated, also authentic clips from random tourists and safari guides show similar things. That´s why I have had to change my thoughts, while crocodiles are for sure having upper hand many times, it´s not one-sided show. Lions show many times that they demand respect too and male lions especially. And this can be seen with other animals too time to time. Like when a one male lion started to rest while a leopard was 2 meters away from it. It was totally indifferent what comes to leopard, like it would be meaningless. I would bet that a tiger in same situation couldn´t have done the same, it would have attacked the leopard. That arrogant indifference of lions is sometimes almost comical to see Until they get really irritated for some reason, then it´s no fun for anyone.
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Post by brobear on Aug 15, 2021 13:48:49 GMT -5
Reply #55; yes, I also watched that documentary. Another with that *shock effect that remains in your memory. I remember thinking, no feast, no anything, is worth swimming across a body of crocodile-infested water. These lions are insane! And yes, it is clear that, with possibly the exception of the elephant and the rhino, and perhaps the bull hippopotamus, all creatures respect the lion. I would like to see your input in "Bears surviving in Africa" - found in Bear in General... *Could a population of transferred brown bears survive in South Africa?
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Post by brobear on Aug 15, 2021 21:07:06 GMT -5
African buffalo, although not the biggest of wild bovine, appear to possibly be the most aggressive. Spotted hyenas have a nastier disposition than grey wolves. The lion appears to possibly be more aggressive than the tiger. Could it possibly be that the combination of wide-open country and dry hot climate have a lot to do with this... ? *I will edit and add, the Nile crocodile is way meaner than an alligator. *Edit and add 20 hours later regarding Lion vs Tiger; regardless of all of the elite posters input, all of the so-called evidence, all of the stories taken from the newspapers our great grandparents read, and all of the hype on either side of this debate, all that we really have to go on is speculation. Nothing more. There does not exist even one single recorded cases of a tiger vs lion fight in the wild.
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Post by brobear on Aug 19, 2021 10:02:09 GMT -5
First argument on Earth: Adam says to Eve, "Look at those two beautiful powerful cats. I believe that if they fought, the Lion would slay the Tiger." And so in response, Eve declares, "Oh no, Adam my love, the Tiger would surely slay the Lion." And from that fateful day and all through the ages, this argument has raged.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 10:16:14 GMT -5
First argument on Earth: Adam says to Eve, "Look at those two beautiful powerful cats. I believe that if they fought, the Lion would slay the Tiger." And so in response, Eve declares, "Oh no, Adam my love, the Tiger would surely slay the Lion." And from that fateful day and all through the ages, this argument has raged. Maybe iconic species demand disputes which are larger than life
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