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Post by brobear on Mar 22, 2018 2:40:38 GMT -5
This has been debated numerous times in past animal blog sites. Does intelligence play a role in a fight between two different species of animals? How much of a fight advantage is intelligence?
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Post by tom on Mar 22, 2018 13:12:26 GMT -5
That's hard to quantify. Let's look at boxers. A smart boxer can lure an inexperienced boxer into punching himself out, remember Muhammed Ali's "rope-a-dope"?
With animals I think it's more of what do I stand to gain or Lose by fighting. If your starving than there is less to lose by fighting because if you don't eat you don't survive anyway. If hunger is not the ultimate decision maker sometimes avoiding a fight is the intelligent thing to do. IMO intelligence will only take you so far. Personally, I think size and or aggression will play a bigger part in the outcome.
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Post by brobear on Mar 22, 2018 14:57:31 GMT -5
I agree with all said Tom. People in general are too quick to call an animal "coward" because it walks away from a potential fight. Good example is again the wolverine. A highly-aggressive 40-pound wolverine challenges a 500-pound grizzly over an elk carcass; the grizzly backs off and walks away. Is the bear a coward? Let this same scenario play out in early Spring when the bear is straight out of hibernation and famished. Different story and different outcome. Will a Russian grizzly challenge a mature male tiger over a carcass? Sure, but only if he has dire need of that chunk of meat. No meal is worth fighting a tiger over unless the grizzly is desperate for food. I'm sure that the tiger feels the same way. A grizzly fights a bull, a bull elk, or a wild boar... the bear is smart enough to avoid the horns, antlers, or ivory tusks. He is wise enough all during the battle to avoid those sharp weapons. The grizzly nearly always wins this fight. He is big, he is strong, and he can be quite aggressive; but a bear is also a thinker.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2018 6:03:46 GMT -5
I think that just like humans, animals have their own unique "common sense" and creativity. Martial arts came from creativity of human movement and through trial an error. With the animal, there may be some instinct involved but that's my answer.
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Post by brobear on Mar 27, 2018 10:27:57 GMT -5
I agree. With fighting experience comes learning a bit from each fight; especially considering the intelligence and learning ability of a bear. My take: brains and brawn is better than brawn alone. A grizzly in the olden days nearly always came out victorious when pitted against a fighting bull. But those bears were familiar with killing wild or feral cattle before their capture. A grizzly from ( let's say ) Yellowstone who has no bull-fighting experience just might lose that fight - maybe.
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Post by brobear on Mar 29, 2018 11:37:47 GMT -5
So many things to consider.
#1 - Numbers. This is a huge advantage.
#2 - Experience. This is a great advantage if coupled with learning ability.
#3 - Size and Weight. #4 - Strength and Leverage. #5 - Speed and Quick Reflexes. #6 - Agility. #7 - Natural Weapons. #8 - Natural Armor. #9 - Grappling Ability. #10 - Intelligence. #11 - Bipedal Ability. #11 - Aggressiveness. #12 - Bite Force. #13 - Stamina. #14 - Endurance to Pain and Injury. #15 - Paw-Strike.
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Post by brobear on Mar 29, 2018 11:40:45 GMT -5
Numbers can be considered as the best advantage an animal might have. However, not always a game-changer. One grizzly or one tiger can successfully fight off a pack of wolves regardless of numbers. Size needed. A pride of lions is altogether a different matter.
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Post by brobear on Apr 11, 2018 11:48:13 GMT -5
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Post by Polar on Apr 11, 2018 15:57:35 GMT -5
Bears would have a huge advantage in a fight when it comes to bipedalism. With a more "grounded" weight distribution and stable hips, a bear can withstand many forces standing up unlike a big cat. The cat is like an upright needle in contrast, easily can fall.
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Post by brobear on Apr 12, 2018 2:22:43 GMT -5
Grappling Ability - Bears have an even greater range of motion with their massive arms than cats. A grizzly's in-turned feet and bow-legged posture gives him an advantageous gripping ability. Bears are built for wrestling. It has been stated that a grizzly is a mauler and a brawler.
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Post by brobear on Sept 13, 2018 4:06:55 GMT -5
Natural armor - Not true armor, but because of the bear's broad thick build a big cat can do little damage to him in a struggle other than the face. A bear pays special attention to protecting his nose. A grizzly's bow-legged stance with in-turned feet provide exceptional wrestling ability. Broad build, bowed legs, and in-turned feet strongly contribute to the bull-breed dog's fighting ability.
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Post by tom on Sept 13, 2018 14:54:17 GMT -5
Not to mention the claws of a bear vs a cat. Those long thick claws of a bear would slash deep massive wounds on a thin skinned cat.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 13, 2018 17:48:02 GMT -5
Not to mention the claws of a bear vs a cat. Those long thick claws of a bear would slash deep massive wounds on a thin skinned cat. Absolutely right Tom. Tiger fans claim the tigers claws do more damage, but judging by this comparison here, its not even close. Bears use it like a hammer blow and it has decapitated adult moose before.
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Post by brobear on Sept 13, 2018 18:09:44 GMT -5
Cat claws are designed for holding onto prey; for not allowing a mouse to escape; for clinging to and pulling down a buffalo. Grizzly claws are designed for digging; even in very hard ground. In a fight, cat claws are more likely to snag in tough hide or in a tendon, just as the claws of a house cat snags in cushioned furniture.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 13, 2018 20:24:36 GMT -5
Yeah a grizzly can dig the ground like a machine. My friend used to say that tigers claws are like a small pocket knife and grizzlies claws are like big blunt daggers that deal more damage.
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Post by brobear on Sept 14, 2018 2:12:54 GMT -5
A tiger can have claws four inches long; the length of an average grizzly claw. The tiger's claws are much sharper than bear claws. But grizzly claws are not dull and he has the raw strength to do horrific damage with them. Also consider that while a tiger has a powerful paw-swipe, he hasn't a chance in a "slap-fight" with a grizzly. You know, what we actually discuss here is not why we believe that a grizzly can defeat a lion or a tiger but rather why it seems he always wins this fight. I'm nor saying that at some point in time in the past, perhaps a grizzly has been defeated by a big cat. We will keep searching. But anything found on the internet must be verified. Books are a much better source of information. Anyway, this topic is to compare advantages and disadvantages. Here is a site often scoffed at, put posted by a biologist: www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict13.html
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 14, 2018 4:46:23 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Sept 14, 2018 5:31:02 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/ The claim that an adult grizzly bear can decapitate a moose with one swipe of its paw is an established fact. The first reported event took place in Alaska in 1895 by a Russian miner who was hiking through the wilderness. According to his account, he witnessed a moose drinking from a stream when a Grizzly bear approached from the other side. Mooses are very territorial, and they are especially known to attack anything they perceive to be a threat to their water source. The moose charged full speed across the stream, and just as it neared the bear, the bear stood up and with a quick motion swiped the moose in the side of the face. The mooses head became decapitated and flew a distance of fifteen to twenty feet. ...and quick as a spark on a fire the grizzly bear stood up and swatted the moose in the face. Why it was if you or I would swat a fly, but the impact seemed to me as loud as a gunshot. And then I was absolutely flabbergasted and discombobulated to see, a great upsplash of blood, and the mooses head detatched from the body and landed not three feet from where I was hidden, its eyes staring right at me. The bear sat down immediately and began drinking from the stream as if nothing had happened, as if it were a regular occurance to go decapitating the head of a moose. Never in my life will I forget the power of the grizzly bear... The report was met by skepticism until noted American biologist Dr. Jacob MacDonaldson observed a similar event in the spring of 1954. MacDonaldson was observing the movements of a Grizzly bear when a moose walked into the same space. The grizzly bear perceived the moose to be a threat to the cubs, and roared to scare it off. But the moose began to graze. The bear then charged the moose, but again the moose did not move. The bear then lumbered over to the moose, and with a powerful swipe of its paw, decapitated the moose. Dr. MacDonaldson later retreived the moose head an autopsy found damage consistent with that of decapitation by impact. Later studies contribute the phenomenon to both the relative weakness of a mooses upper neck and the power of a grizzly bears arm. Although a grizzly bear is very powerful, it does not have the strength to decapitate most creatures larger than a man. A moose however is peculiar in the structure of its upperneck, which is weak, and any force that puts a significant and sudden pressure on the weakest point of the neck will inevitably cause decapitation. Since 1895, there have been 15 reported cases of Moose decapitation by Grizzly, and most scientists theorize it is a natural, albeit somewhat rare, event.
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Post by brobear on Sept 14, 2018 5:36:43 GMT -5
An American black bear once killed a lion with a paw-swipe. All bears have massive upper-body strength but the grizzly's upper-body strength is enhanced by his unique shoulder hump. That hump which is an adaptation for digging into nearly concrete-hard earth adds power to his paw-swipe. A tiger indeed has a powerful paw-strike but the grizzly is in a league all his own.
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 14, 2018 5:49:00 GMT -5
An American black bear once killed a lion with a paw-swipe. All bears have massive upper-body strength but the grizzly's upper-body strength is enhanced by his unique shoulder hump. That hump which is an adaptation for digging into nearly concrete-hard earth adds power to his paw-swipe. A tiger indeed has a powerful paw-strike but the grizzly is in a league all his own. Yeah the account where the african lion almost had his shoulder torn of by the black bear. The lion was so badly injured that it had to be destroyed. Seems like big cat claws do more slashing and holding, but grizzlies claws break bones and can decapitate.
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