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Post by brobear on May 5, 2020 7:07:39 GMT -5
Bears are not stupid. The Kodiak bear is not going to take his time what he is faced with two adversaries. A bear can make a quick kill when he wants to. Or, he might simply mangle the first lion, leaving him with multiple broken bones than destroy the second lion.
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Post by tom on May 5, 2020 7:08:36 GMT -5
The documentary if you haven't seen it is first rate called "The Great Bear Stakeout"
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Post by tom on May 5, 2020 7:09:46 GMT -5
Thats just one event though, does not happen like that most times. Its the other way around, big cats kill fast, bears take their time. Also, killing 1 female bear fast is no way the same as killing 2 large male lions that are attacking the bear at the same time. That is uncomparable.
I disagree. Were talking about killing one Lion. We can argue the semantics of whether 2 Lions would even bother with a 1500 lb bear or not or even whether they would attack simultaneously all day long till the cows come how. In the end it's all opinion anyway. Where a bear even a large Bear or any predator for that fact will take more time to kill is in prey that are much larger them themselves.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 5, 2020 7:11:14 GMT -5
Now, we do have 3 captive accounts of bears killing tigers/lions in seconds, Ramadam did kill Parnell in seconds. but those were 1 vs 1 fights. 2 vs 1 is a whole different ball game. I just dont see it.
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Post by tom on May 5, 2020 7:16:27 GMT -5
Lets not even go there with the captive stuff. I no.. I no.. it may be all we have but captive animals are different (much different) then their wild cousins. Have we ever had an captive account of a 1300 lb bear against a Lion or tiger? probably not I'm guessing. but for the sake of this debate lets just stick to the wild versions which as I said is mostly based on educated opinions anyway. But I will tell you a Bear the size of Bart can kill anything smaller then himself very quickly if he so desires, that's not opinion as I've witnessed it.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 5, 2020 7:23:43 GMT -5
Well Tom, it might seem that way, that is what most people think, but actually, captive and wild specimens are not very different from each other:
PETER
“ALTHOUGH LESS ABLE THAN THEIR WILD RELATIVES, CAPTIVE BIG CATS ARE NOT VERY DIFFERENT FROM THEM”
wildfact.com/forum/topic-animal-trainers?pid=79489#pid79489
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Post by King Kodiak on May 5, 2020 7:28:23 GMT -5
Most accounts dont state the weight of the animals, but we do have descriptions like "huge bear", or "large bear", so who knows. But i dont think any bear surpassed 1000 lbs in any of the accounts. They all were larger than the big cats, thats for sure.
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Post by brobear on May 5, 2020 18:08:34 GMT -5
Every bear seen by "non-professionals" is a huge bear. A bear, with his blocky-stocky build simply looks big. Quote: " They all were larger than the big cats, thats for sure." A matter of opinion. To some, equal mass means equal size. I strongly disagree. For myself, two men facing each other, each standing 6 feet tall, is a size-parity face-off, even if one man weighs 150 pounds and the other man weighs 250 pounds. The heavier man probably has the advantage. The lighter man should have eaten more and worked-out more. Too bad for him.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 18:42:37 GMT -5
I will be very honest with you guys, whoever created this thread is nuts. Like Tom said, lets have some fun with our "speculations", this is fine. But realistically speaking, 2 large male lions vs 1 large kodiak bear, even an 1000+ one, you will just have a dead bear basically every time. 2 large, ferocious male lions intended on killing you is just not good. A lion is not a house cat for gods sake. Lets be real here guys common. For two lions to do this, one lion alone must have enough firepower to hold his own against this bear. Do you believe this?
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Post by brobear on May 5, 2020 18:54:34 GMT -5
Common really? First of all, that is a tiger, tigers dont know how to fight face to face. Second of all, we are talking about lions, 2 at once, who fight much better than tigers head on, also lions have a head dodging technique to avoid hits.
A tiger is a house cat compared to a lion. This is pure speculation. A tiger is not a house cat in comparison with a lion. In fact, a tiger is bigger and stronger than a lion; although not as aggressive. We will not debate lion vs tiger on the Domain.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 18:59:10 GMT -5
Common really? First of all, that is a tiger, tigers dont know how to fight face to face. Second of all, we are talking about lions, 2 at once, who fight much better than tigers head on, also lions have a head dodging technique to avoid hits.
A tiger is a house cat compared to a lion. This is pure speculation. A tiger is not a house cat in comparison with a lion. In fact, a tiger is bigger and stronger than a lion; although not as aggressive. We will not debate lion vs tiger on the Domain. Kodiak is a person that believes the lion is superior to the tiger and as a result of the that stupid neverending debate, likely got angered by tiger fanboys and the tiger left a bad taste in his mouth.
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Post by brobear on May 5, 2020 19:00:54 GMT -5
I will be very honest with you guys, whoever created this thread is nuts. Like Tom said, lets have some fun with our "speculations", this is fine. But realistically speaking, 2 large male lions vs 1 large kodiak bear, even an 1000+ one, you will just have a dead bear basically every time. 2 large, ferocious male lions intended on killing you is just not good. A lion is not a house cat for gods sake. Lets be real here guys common. For two lions to do this, one lion alone must have enough firepower to hold his own against this bear. Do you believe this? Also note; we are not talking about a Yellowstone grizzly here; but instead the largest land-based predator on earth, a brown bear which, even pound-for-pound, has the heaviest skeleton among brown bears ( probably bears in general ), comparable to a cave bear. The kodiak bear. This Alaskan giant against two African lions; I'd wager the farm on this bear, which is as heavy as three lions.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 19:08:01 GMT -5
For two lions to do this, one lion alone must have enough firepower to hold his own against this bear. Do you believe this? Also note; we are not talking about a Yellowstone grizzly here; but instead the largest land-based predator on earth, a brown bear which, even pound-for-pound, has the heaviest skeleton among brown bears ( probably bears in general ), comparable to a cave bear. The kodiak bear. This Alaskan giant against two African lions; I'd wager the farm on this bear, which is as heavy as three lions. I'd still go with a 50/50 here if the lions played it safe and did hit and run and slowly wear down the bear. Attacking head on I don't think is the best option due to reasons previously stated. It would be very long and tiring but this assuming the lions are playing it safe. A 420 lb lion despite being outweighed still has a powerful bite and strength of his own. However I truly think that if this occurred at all, the lions may run away.
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Post by brobear on May 5, 2020 19:35:28 GMT -5
Here's the problem that the lions will have to face-up to. There is no way for a lion to make a quick kill on a Kodiak bear. The tactics they us on a buffalo will not work on an over-sized grizzly. While the lions are trying to figure this out, a lion is being mauled by the big brawler, the brown bear. Also note: despite what "The Bold One" is telling you, the average lion does not weigh 420 pounds. Try: 380-385 pounds. Also note: if what all the hype is about is true; then the lions will simply rush in... Lions kill herbivores in the exact same methods as do tigers. ( strangulation or suffocation ). It therefore stands to reason that a lion will attempt to kill a bear in the same method as a tiger; a bite to the base of the neck. On a big brown bear boar; the lion will discover that a quick kill is impossible.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 19:46:41 GMT -5
Here's the problem that the lions will have to face-up to. There is no way for a lion to make a quick kill on a Kodiak bear. The tactics they us on a buffalo will not work on an over-sized grizzly. While the lions are trying to figure this out, a lion is being mauled by the big brawler, the brown bear. Also note: despite what "The Bold One" is telling you, the average lion does not weigh 420 pounds. Try: 380-385 pounds. Also note: if what all the hype is about is true; then the lions will simply rush in... Lions kill herbivores in the exact same methods as do tigers. ( strangulation or suffocation ). It therefore stands to reason that a lion will attempt to kill a bear in the same method as a tiger; a bite to the base of the neck. On a big brown bear boar; the lion will discover that a quick kill is impossible. There was a time where information stated that African lions average 550 lbs and that tigers were 600-700 lbs. Boldchamp didn't tell me that, it was just some stuff I had read a while back. A 400 lb lion is still pretty powerful. And yes many people that support these cats end up inflating their weights and sizes to give them an advantage in a face off.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 19:50:58 GMT -5
Here's the problem that the lions will have to face-up to. There is no way for a lion to make a quick kill on a Kodiak bear. The tactics they us on a buffalo will not work on an over-sized grizzly. While the lions are trying to figure this out, a lion is being mauled by the big brawler, the brown bear. Also note: despite what "The Bold One" is telling you, the average lion does not weigh 420 pounds. Try: 380-385 pounds. Also note: if what all the hype is about is true; then the lions will simply rush in... Lions kill herbivores in the exact same methods as do tigers. ( strangulation or suffocation ). It therefore stands to reason that a lion will attempt to kill a bear in the same method as a tiger; a bite to the base of the neck. On a big brown bear boar; the lion will discover that a quick kill is impossible. While the tactics wouldn't work on a grizzly due to the bear also being a predator, the lions are faster and could stay out of the bear's reach. Yes a big cat can't make a quick kill on such a creature but my point was that if they are able to land attacks here and there and dodge and run, they could potentially kill the bear over the course of a long while. I may be giving the lions too much credit but I see that being the best way the lions could deal with this bear.
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Post by brobear on May 5, 2020 20:02:36 GMT -5
Quote: While the tactics wouldn't work on a grizzly due to the bear also being a predator, the lions are faster and could stay out of the bear's reach. Yes a big cat can't make a quick kill on such a creature but my point was that if they are able to land attacks here and there and dodge and run, they could potentially kill the bear over the course of a long while. I may be giving the lions too much credit but I see that being the best way the lions could deal with this bear. *I completely understand your thoughts. But this slap-and-dodge routine is only used when a cat is attempting to bluff a bear. I've watched videos of leopards and cougars doing this. But this simply does not fit the profile of a lion. There will be full-body contact between the lions and the bear. One lion will be trying to semi-ambush the bear by attempting ( possibly succeeding ) in getting onto the bear's back while the other lion is full-frontal. The "full-frontal" lion will be dead within seconds. Crushed. The other lion will take a minute or two longer.
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Post by brobear on May 5, 2020 20:06:40 GMT -5
People tend to think of the ultra-aggressive lion as some kind of unstoppable force. These people do not consider the fact that neither in Africa nor in Gir National Park, are there any large predators even close to the size of a lion. I believe that a tiger will stand a better chance in a face-off against a grizzly than would a lion.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 20:07:40 GMT -5
Quote: While the tactics wouldn't work on a grizzly due to the bear also being a predator, the lions are faster and could stay out of the bear's reach. Yes a big cat can't make a quick kill on such a creature but my point was that if they are able to land attacks here and there and dodge and run, they could potentially kill the bear over the course of a long while. I may be giving the lions too much credit but I see that being the best way the lions could deal with this bear. *I completely understand your thoughts. But this slap-and-dodge routine is only used when a cat is attempting to bluff a bear. I've watched videos of leopards and cougars doing this. But this simply does not fit the profile of a lion. There will be full-body contact between the lions and the bear. One lion will be trying to semi-ambush the bear by attempting ( possibly succeeding ) in getting onto the bear's back while the other lion is full-frontal. The "full-frontal" lion will be dead within seconds. Crushed. The other lion will take a minute or two longer. You're basically saying that they're too aggressive to stick with hit and run tactics and likely would charge it head up and die. If that happens, then yes the lions can't win.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 20:09:20 GMT -5
People tend to think of the ultra-aggressive lion as some kind of unstoppable force. These people do not consider the fact that neither in Africa nor in Gir National Park, are there any large predators even close to the size of a lion. I believe that a tiger will stand a better chance in a face-off against a grizzly than would a lion. Well tigers have more of a history with bears as opposed to lions. That's why I personally give a tiger a slightly better chance.
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