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Post by arctozilla on Sept 9, 2023 6:31:18 GMT -5
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 28, 2023 3:01:17 GMT -5
"In the book Circus Boy, by Ryley Cooper, there was an account where a lion was fighting a grizzly, and the account says: "The lion swung into its usual three foot fighting pose, lunging terrific blows with the fourth which were disregarded by the grizzly, which closed in, caught the lion to him, crushed the life
dis-re-gard
verb pay no attention to; ignore"
Well it's not surprising the lion failed to strike the bear and got grappled down. Grappling is more technical over striking especially if you have better fighting pose and more mobile limbs than an oppenent who rarely stands up on its hindlimbs. So in a face-to-face fight the bear has the edge.
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Post by brobear on Sept 28, 2023 5:23:50 GMT -5
"In the book Circus Boy, by Ryley Cooper, there was an account where a lion was fighting a grizzly, and the account says: "The lion swung into its usual three foot fighting pose, lunging terrific blows with the fourth which were disregarded by the grizzly, which closed in, caught the lion to him, crushed the life dis-re-gard verb pay no attention to; ignore" Well it's not surprising the lion failed to strike the bear and got grappled down. Grappling is more technical over striking especially if you have better fighting pose and more mobile limbs than an oppenent who rarely stands up on its hindlimbs. So in a face-to-face fight the bear has the edge. No, it doesn't read like the lion "failed to strike the bear" but rather like the paw-strikes from a lion will only serve to anger the bear. Remember that a brown bear has enough girth to absorb a paw-strike from another brown bear.
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 1, 2023 3:26:38 GMT -5
/\ That's true this is why there are a lot of fat people who won boxing championship. Bears in desperate situation will rely on paw swipes.
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Post by brobear on Oct 2, 2023 4:13:02 GMT -5
/\ That's true this is why there are a lot of fat people who won boxing championship. Bears in desperate situation will rely on paw swipes. I believe (simply my opinion) that a paw-strike is an instinctive action rather than a calculated action from a bear simply because a paw-strike has little effect against another bear or equal size. The bear just doesn't think of a paw-strike as a killing method even though sometimes, against non-bear adversaries, his opponent is killed.
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Oct 11, 2023 3:25:04 GMT -5
I just saw this video, and now I'm just confused?
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2023 3:33:19 GMT -5
I have been noticing that wild animal forums, on the topics of wild animal fights, such as lion vs tiger or tiger vs bear, etc., people are posting old newspaper clippings from the 19th century and from the early-to-mid 20th century. That is just a big waste of time. When I first started the "Domain of the Bears" I had just about every big cat vs bear fight that was ever printed in a newspaper copied and pasted. Most of what I had was found on the long-dead "Shaggygod" forum. Most of that information is now long-gone from that old forum. Then we ran into a snag. The most famous (or infamous) big cat vs bear fight that ever took place in North America. Parnell the lion vs. Ramadam the grizzly bear. I had posted the story straight from the book "California Grizzly" by Tracy I. Storer and Lloyd P. Tevis Jr. This same story was seen by a very reliable poster (Big Bonns) in the old, now dead, AVA (animal vs animal) forum; the original newspaper clipping, on the wall of the State Capital Building of California. These two, what I would consider reliable sources, said that the Ramadam the grizzly killed Parnell the African lion within a matter of seconds. But here is the problem. This story had become popular even before a location was decided on to conduct the fight. Since laws had been recently passed which prohibited an arranged fight to take place in San Francisco, it was finally decide to have the fight in Mexico. Newspapers all over the United States each were printing their own versions of the fight. Of course, very few of those reporters actually witnessed the battle. But sensationalism sells newspapers, so most of those reporters made the fight to be an exciting blow-by-blow, long lasting event, which sounded better than the truth (IMO) which only lasted a few seconds. Not only were newspapers recreating the true story but each newspaper was giving the fight different endings. I have read maybe six or eight versions over the years. Sometimes the bear wins, sometimes the lion, and sometimes its a draw. One story was printed that had Ramadam replaced with Monarch; another famous California grizzly. So, my point is, I would not consider any newspaper story, concerning wild animal fights, as factual - from any time period. Always read the story with a grain of salt and then research further. __________________________________ This book, "THE BEAR - History of a Fallen King" was written by Michel Pastoureau, a European historian who actually read through the records of the Roman circus games. No old newspapers involved. Quote: "Although they sometimes staged battles in the arena between bears and bulls ( the bears almost always won ), they especially liked to see wild animals brought from Africa or Asia fight one another or against men. Sometimes, however, curiosity made them wonder about the strength of a bear or a bull compared to that of an animal from afar, and so there were battles between bears and lions, bears and panthers, bulls and lions, bulls and an elephant, and even a bear and a rhinoceros. Although bulls, fighting alone or in a group, seem never to have been victorious, a bear always won in single combat against a lion or against several panthers." Also note; the wording used in your video, BJA, shows me that a big cat fanboy created that video.
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2023 4:04:39 GMT -5
Remember also, the story from a Russian newspaper, November 2022, of the tiger who had killed a huge male brown bear. As it turns out, the dead bear was that of an adolescent three year old bear.
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Oct 11, 2023 5:02:18 GMT -5
Alright, I'll research further into it. It's just confused when there are many contradicts in the story, one side, it is stated that the grizzly killed the lion in a matter of seconds, and I've read the account of a bear killing a tiger in a matter of seconds in a san Francisco fight, and even a video of a grizzly male killing a sow almost instantly, so I have a pretty good idea of what a bear is capable of, but on the other hand, you see the newspaper where Parnell had been in the cage with Ramadan, and quote "coward like a b**ch" in front of Parnell and was drummed out of the arena, but Colonel Boone still had his money on the grizzly, I know you said that newspapers aren't always the most reliable of sources, but the whole instance of Ramadan "cowaring like a b**ch" in front of Parnell and getting his meat stolen, it just doesn't seem like something that somebody would make up or lie about, I want apologize to you if it seems like I'm trying to start trouble or anything like that, I only want to know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, regardless of if it's in anyone's favor.
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2023 5:32:19 GMT -5
Quote, "...but the whole instance of Ramadan "cowaring like a b**ch" in front of Parnell and getting his meat stolen, it just doesn't seem like something that somebody would make up or lie about..." *Why not? It makes a good story. The video even, from one paper, claimed they fought in Texas. Also consider, the California grizzly was a bigger bear than a Yellowstone grizzly. Probably about the size of an Ussuri brown bear.
Bottom line - a story cannot be confirmed by using a newspaper article as evidence. No version of the Parnell & Ramadam event can be claimed as FACT.
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Oct 11, 2023 6:04:29 GMT -5
Also recently, I have read accounts of bears fighting bulls in pit fights, but in the video, it stated that bears always lost to bulls and the only time bears have won was when the horns were cut, or under certain circumstances, and the video brings up accounts of bison and moose defeating or killing multiple bears, but Montezuma told me that bears were not the best hunters but better fighters, but why is it on one side it stated that bears did well against bulls and other sources stated that bulls are " a nightmare" for bears.
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2023 6:40:24 GMT -5
Also recently, I have read accounts of bears fighting bulls in pit fights, but in the video, it stated that bears always lost to bulls and the only time bears have won was when the horns were cut, or under certain circumstances, and the video brings up accounts of bison and moose defeating or killing multiple bears, but Montezuma told me that bears were not the best hunters but better fighters, but why is it on one side it stated that bears did well against bulls and other sources stated that bulls are " a nightmare" for bears. Again, this is a lion fanboy video. According to several books I've read, in the Old California (Spanish) the bear was the most often victor. Understand this, the Spanish culture greatly admire the bull. The bull was their favorite. So, their records were not biased. After California was taken over by "gringos", instead of capturing big male California grizzlies, they brought in small subadult male grizzlies, grizzly she-bears, and black bears. Also, their bulls were far less impressive. In these fights, the bear lost as often as the bull. Soon, this blood sport was outlawed. In those times, there were wild (actually feral) range cattle which had been living on the wilderness for a couple of hundred years. They would later be rounded-up and given the name of "Texas Longhorn." California grizzlies hunted and killed those cattle, including the big bulls. When ranches and farms got started, "outlaw" grizzles were becoming notorious for killing livestock, including big bulls. According to pioneers, Indians, and homesteaders, sometimes the grizzly killed the bison. Sometimes the bison killed the grizzly. Again; the grizzlies of California and of the great plains were bigger bears than today's Rocky Mountain grizzly. domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/15/historical-grizzly?page=1
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2023 6:46:23 GMT -5
About Parnell & Ramadam; I believe in my heart that the bear killed the lion within seconds. Why? That report came from the San Francisco newspaper. A copy is on the wall in Sacramento, California, the state capital. It is also the story written in "California Grizzly" by Tracy I. Storer and Lloyd P. Tevis Jr. There are no doubts in my mind that the reporter from California was an actual eye-witness. Nevertheless, we cannot claim this as a FACT.
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Post by Everyday on Oct 12, 2023 4:59:36 GMT -5
Nevertheless, we cannot claim this as a FACT. Of course we can't. But tiger lovers would immediately believe such news if it were a similar story about how a tiger killed a bear (or lion).
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 14, 2023 1:53:10 GMT -5
@bja stop bringing Marshall Wayne here. He's a lion fanatic who bashes tigers and bears in favor of the lion. He even use symbolism to "prove" lion was the dominant animal in the Roman Arenas just like the house cat was the strongest animal in Egypt.
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 14, 2023 2:01:14 GMT -5
Yes, exactly. Tiger fanatics are biggest hypocrites. They hate Prime so much because he bashes tigers for lions yet they quote him over in lions and cougars killing bears. They also try to validate accounts of cougars killing bears in the very end even when they're refuted by actual biologists but refuse to accept accounts of dholes killing tigers in secs. Hahahaha
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Oct 14, 2023 5:14:52 GMT -5
@bja stop bringing Marshall Wayne here. He's a lion fanatic who bashes tigers and bears in favor of the lion. He even use symbolism to "prove" lion was the dominant animal in the Roman Arenas. Okay, sorry for the trouble
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Post by brobear on Oct 14, 2023 8:04:04 GMT -5
Nevertheless, we cannot claim this as a FACT. Of course we can't. But tiger lovers would immediately believe such news if it were a similar story about how a tiger killed a bear (or lion). Yes; they always do.
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 14, 2023 8:21:23 GMT -5
What people? You mean these guys?
- Aristoteles, a moron who believen a single lion killed 200 other beasts in Roman Arenas. - Sonic-Blast, a psychopath who values religion far more than science and threatens to murder people and rape their families.
Is that?
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Post by brobear on Oct 14, 2023 8:58:35 GMT -5
What people? You mean these guys? - Aristoteles, a moron who believen a single lion killed 200 bestiarii in Roman Arenas. - Sonic-Blast, a psychopath who values religion far more than science and threatens to murder people and rape their families. Is that? Michel Pastoureau is a European historian. Over the years, in his studies of ancient Europe, he kept noticing references to bears. There is only one bear species in Europe (since the Ice Age); the brown bear. He was then compelled to do a historical research on the bear. His work is highly credible. Of course, the big cat fans will accept anyone and any story that fits their agenda. As for the Roman circus games; Pastoureau spent a lot of time reading through the records which had been preserved. Not even one account of a lion ever defeating a bear in the Roman arena. The bear always won that fight. However, the bear lost to a rhinoceros.
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