BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
|
Post by BJA on Jun 3, 2023 4:38:21 GMT -5
I saw the video, ain't trying to upset, it's I want to ask questions and get some clarity, you know what I mean.
|
|
BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
|
Post by BJA on Jun 3, 2023 5:04:29 GMT -5
The video is unavailable, but I hear you, appreciate it. Click on where it reads: Watch on Youtube. I just to let you know, I appreciate you giving me some insight on some questions I had, thank you
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2023 7:23:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2023 7:25:30 GMT -5
BEARS HAVE MORE POWERFUL BICEPS MUSCLES THAN THOSE OF FELIDS: www.researchgate.net/publication/264931438_Comparative_Anatomy_of_the_Shoulder_Region_in_the_Late_Miocene_Amphicyonid_Magericyon_anceps_Carnivora_Functional_and_Paleoecological_Inferences "Among these traits, the intertubercular groove morphology has interesting functional implications: the tendon of the muscle biceps brachii runs into this groove, with the transversal humeral ligament (developed between both the greater and the lesser tubercles) keeping the tendon in place inside the groove (Evans 1993; Barone 2010). As described previously, the shape of the intertubercular groove is similar in canids, felids, and amphicyonids in general (thus including M. anceps), it being markedly different from that of ursids, which have a much more closed, canal-like groove (Fig. 6). Taylor (1974) associated this character with both the power of the muscle biceps brachii and the degree of usage: a clearly defined intertubercular groove, such as that of ursids, would allow a better control of movements, and probably a powerful muscle. According to Taylor (1974) the nandiniid Nandinia binotata, which shows an ursid-like groove, employs this muscle to a much greater degree than the viverrid Civettictis civetta (with a much more open groove) and this would be related to the greater climbing ability of the former."
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2023 7:27:16 GMT -5
|
|
BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
|
Post by BJA on Jun 3, 2023 10:57:31 GMT -5
4. Thanks for sharing me the book, but looking more in arguments and Tapatalks, many people say that Michael isn't a credible source, and say that Michael's lawyer says that Michael has the tendency to make claims that exceed the evidence. And that if the bears dominated the roman coliseums, then how come it wasn't represented nearly as much as the lion, and that there were lion statues all around Rome and many Romans wanted to be lions and worshipped the lions, and any time lions were in the arenas, the Romans cheered, and lions were linked to the most powerful sources in the world, and that the amount of lion worship and reverence in ancient times are said to contradict Michael's studies *The Romans loved lions for their regal appearance and their roar. This began long before the arena fights began. Historian Michael Pastoureau got his information straight from the original source, the records from ancient Rome. The very fact that they practically worshipped lions pretty-much proves that their descriptions of the fights were honest. I wonder what the original source in question was
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 4, 2023 6:27:26 GMT -5
Source in question? The mere fact that the Romans admired lions further concludes that their records were kept honest. Just like the bull and bear fights of Old California. The Spanish people admire the bull; which was their favorite in those blood-sports. Yet, their records indicate that the bear was more often the victor.
|
|
BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
|
Post by BJA on Jun 4, 2023 11:40:17 GMT -5
Is the same situation, where in Korea, they have Everland, and Koreans admire the tiger, but a few employees admitted that the lions dominated the tigers
|
|
|
Post by Montezuma on Jun 6, 2023 6:48:28 GMT -5
BJA, Everything, is clear here. We have alot of proof over here showing the brown bears supeiority over lion. To see why bears are stronger, better fighters than lions and why bears beat lions in fights, see our thread in Bear Predation and face off topic's thread "Adult big bears always dominated lions since prehistory", its pinned; and every detail is given over there and thats all reliable. Claims like lions are stronger than bears is nothing more than Crap. If they were, modern science would classify lions and other felids stronger than bears. Even the stupidest fan with some exceptions knows that bears are overwhelmingly stronger. Great proof is shown again and again by yz. I simply don't like to answer the understood and well elaborated things. Everything, from head to toe, is explained in that thread that why bear would beat a lion.
|
|
|
Post by Montezuma on Jun 6, 2023 6:54:51 GMT -5
Rossswin? Ahhh... come on. He knows nothing. He uses ancient artifacts for scientific analysis. He is very superficial.
Bears are plantigrade and lions are diligigarade and the former structure enchanes better fighting poisition than the latter. Does he ever mentions that? No.
Does he ever mention true and reliable morphological studies of carnivores? No.
Because he know that his fantasies are just limited to himself.
|
|
|
Post by yz on Jun 6, 2023 7:36:29 GMT -5
Rossswin? Ahhh... come on. He knows nothing. He uses ancient artifacts for scientific analysis. He is very superficial. Bears are plantigrade and lions are diligigarade and the former structure enchanes better fighting poisition than the latter. Does he ever mentions that? No. Does he ever mention true and reliable morphological studies of carnivores? No. Because he know that his fantasies are just limited to himself. Scientists basically always use the word "bear-like" when they want to describe particularly robust prehistoric animals. Not once has the word "lion-like" been used except when they described an animal with gracile limbs 😂 : pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10663132/www.researchgate.net/publication/266753114_Felid_form_and_function
|
|
|
Post by arctozilla on Jun 6, 2023 9:35:16 GMT -5
Ross Wind will cry a river after reading the article.
|
|
BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
|
Post by BJA on Jun 6, 2023 10:44:22 GMT -5
Thank you Montezuma and yz for giving me insight, some stuff I already know and should be common knowledge, but I just want to get some concrete clarification, but for a while now, I've seen all the arguments and rebuttals, I know big cat fans will say anything to make it seem like their favorite animal is the best one in the world, and I have always thought and stated this, no big cat is going to match the strength and durability of a grizzly, or polar bear
|
|
|
Post by arctozilla on Sept 6, 2023 8:56:32 GMT -5
brobear and yz, I appreciate y'all for this info, In my opinion, a large bear would own any big cat under normal circumstances, due to a bear being more durable, being bigger and stronger, and having more endurance, but I'm still skeptical about the whole paw swipes thing, because many people bring up the video of the grizzly bear attacking a caribou, and many animals like a young bison, and they have observed people say that they seen bears attack sheep, and the bears didn't strike once, but when it came to lions, they bring their prey down instantly, even using their "strikes"to take down prey, and when bears are fighting, they wrestle, not strike, while there are countless videos of lions fighting, and they strike and dodge, that's why I'm still wondering about the whole striking thing Is this video a good analysis for lion, tiger, and bear paw swipes LMFAO that video was made by a bear and tiger hating lion fantard. He even use symbolism to "prove" lions dominated Roman bloodsport. pathetic
|
|
|
Post by arctozilla on Sept 6, 2023 9:12:36 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by arctozilla on Sept 6, 2023 9:21:55 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Sept 6, 2023 16:28:32 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/1199/bear-capable-delivering-powerful-force Some basic information : BEAR ATTACKS (Copyright © 2001 by Steven P. French, M.D.) The following is the text for the 43rd chapter in the Fourth Edition of Wilderness Medicine, edited by Paul S. Auerbach, published by Mosby in 2001 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Auerbach BEAR-INDUCED INJURIES Bear-inflicted injuries range from minor, treated on an outpatient basis, to complex, requiring hospitalization and surgery, typically resulting in significant cosmetic and functional disability. In this regard, bear attacks are similar to most other animal attacks, particularly those inflicted by large animals. The character of such injuries is determined in part by the three main sources: teeth, claws, and paws. The teeth of bears, especially the canines, are large and sturdy. Although the teeth are not particularly sharp, the power of the jaw muscles allows the teeth to penetrate deep into soft tissues and to fracture facial bones and bones of the hand and forearm with ease. The trauma characteristically results from punctures, with shearing, tearing, and crushing forces (Figure 43-20). The claws are another important source of trauma. Although the claws on the front pads can be as long as human fingers, they are not particularly sharp on grizzlies and polar bears. The bear’s shoulders, however, provide the force and speed that allows claws to cause significant soft tissue damage in a scraping maneuver that results in deep, parallel gashes. Because black bear claws are sharper and more curved, the cuts tend to have sharper, less ragged edges. The bear paw is capable of delivering a powerful force, resulting in significant blunt trauma, particularly to the head and neck, ribcage, and abdominal cavity, especially solid organ rupture. Therefore victims of bear attacks should be evaluated for occult blunt trauma. ORIGINAL PAPER Large carnivore attacks on hominins during the Pleistocene:a forensic approach with a Neanderthal example Edgard Camarós www.academia.edu/12436456/Large_carnivore_attacks_on_hominins_during_the_Pleistocene_A_forensic_approach_with_a_Neanderthal_example The bear paw is capable of delivering a powerful force, resulting in significant blunt trauma, particularly to the head and neck, ribcage, and abdominal cavity, especially solid organ rupture.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Sept 6, 2023 16:33:12 GMT -5
CONTINUED... Unfortunately, I don't have access to this paper,but .... Grizzly bear (Ursus arctos horribilis) locomotion: gaits and ground reaction forces Catherine L. Shine, Skylar Penberthy, Charles T. Robbins, O. Lynne Nelson, Craig P. McGowan ABSTRACT Locomotion of plantigrade generalists has been relatively little studied compared with more specialised postures even though plantigrady is ancestral among quadrupeds. Bears (Ursidae) are a representative family for plantigrade carnivorans, they have the majority of the morphological characteristics identified for plantigrade species, and they have the full range of generalist behaviours. This study compared the locomotion of adult grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis Linnaeus 1758), including stride parameters, gaits and analysis of three-dimensional ground reaction forces, with that of previously studied quadrupeds. At slow to moderate speeds, grizzly bears use walks, running walks and canters. Vertical ground reaction forces demonstrated the typical M-shaped curve for walks; however, this was significantly more pronounced in the hindlimb. The rate of force development was also significantly higher for the hindlimbs than for the forelimbs at all speeds. Mediolateral forces were significantly higher than would be expected for a large erect mammal, almost to the extent of a sprawling crocodilian. There may be morphological or energetic explanations for the use of the running walk rather than the trot. The high medial forces (produced from a lateral push by the animal) could be caused by frontal plane movement of the carpus and elbow by bears. Overall, while grizzly bears share some similarities with large cursorial species, their locomotor kinetics have unique characteristics. Additional studies are needed to determine whether these characters are a feature of all bears or plantigrade species. Sylvie McKenzie said she was driving along a highway a few kilometres west of Jasper when she noticed two bears running along the road ahead.She said she slowed down to let the bears cross the road, but only the female bear did so. The second bear – a male – simply stopped and stared at her. McKenzie said she then started driving, putting her car between the two bears. Sylvie McKenzie Asked whether she has any advice for drivers caught in the same situation in the future, McKenzie had simple advice: 'Stop, turn around, wait for a few minutes and go back.' (CBC) "The male didn't like it at all, so he decided to take his feet, charge and hit my car with his two front paws," she said. "[He] just came and pounced on my car with full force and full speed." McKenzie said the car rocked violently when the bear hit it, giving her a close-up view of the bear’s face. "I could see his teeth, the drool on his face. I tried to speed up and put my foot on the gas pedal to get away as fast as I could." Later, she found grizzly prints all over the side of her car, along with two big dents and several scratches. It seem that carpal bone have a high resistance to mechanical deformation. Grizzly bear front paws are surprisingly heavy,maybe due to massive carpal bones? This is the most accurate description of the striking ability IMHO: "...The attack of a Bear is usually sudden and rapid, and he either tries to deal his opponent a blow with a forepaw by executing a rapid and violent movement to the side ,or he quickly trots up to his enemy ,suddenly lift himself on his hind-legs in the immediate proximity of his foe whom he tries to knock down with a violent stroke of the front-paw,or else he deals him a sound blow and gives him a quick bite..." Later, she found grizzly prints all over the side of her car, along with two big dents and several scratches. It seem that carpal bone have a high resistance to mechanical deformation. Grizzly bear front paws are surprisingly heavy,maybe due to massive carpal bones? This is the most accurate description of the striking ability IMHO: "...The attack of a Bear is usually sudden and rapid, and he either tries to deal his opponent a blow with a forepaw by executing a rapid and violent movement to the side ,or he quickly trots up to his enemy ,suddenly lift himself on his hind-legs in the immediate proximity of his foe whom he tries to knock down with a violent stroke of the front-paw,or else he deals him a sound blow and gives him a quick bite..." *Note: a cat's paw is soft, designed for stealth.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 7, 2023 5:02:58 GMT -5
Reply 390. The Xenosmilus might be more robust pound to pound than a smilodon fatalis but not the smilodon populator is overall larger and more robust.
|
|
BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
|
Post by BJA on Sept 8, 2023 14:49:27 GMT -5
brobear and yz, I appreciate y'all for this info, In my opinion, a large bear would own any big cat under normal circumstances, due to a bear being more durable, being bigger and stronger, and having more endurance, but I'm still skeptical about the whole paw swipes thing, because many people bring up the video of the grizzly bear attacking a caribou, and many animals like a young bison, and they have observed people say that they seen bears attack sheep, and the bears didn't strike once, but when it came to lions, they bring their prey down instantly, even using their "strikes"to take down prey, and when bears are fighting, they wrestle, not strike, while there are countless videos of lions fighting, and they strike and dodge, that's why I'm still wondering about the whole striking thing Is this video a good analysis for lion, tiger, and bear paw swipes LMFAO that video was made by a bear and tiger hating lion fantard. He even use symbolism to "prove" lions dominated Roman bloodsport. pathetic Apparently, the channel also has a video on why bears don't strike, where the same "sheep" study was used, and also other reasons why "lions strike harder" But the whole grizzly bear predation on sheep study is pointless, because thankfully, you showed me that the same person who wrote the study has stated that he has seen grizzlies kill prey with paw swipes, and after seeing other accounts such as a bear decapitating a wolf in 2005, I think, and observations of polar bears hunting beluga whales by bashing their heads On the same channel, there is a post where it says the following: "For those who are saying that a bear can tank lion paw swipes, here is the data that debunks it *Image 1: This was the other source which showed the lion had denser bones than the kodiak in certain places of the limbs. (I forgot the whole data about this but I bet if this lion was not from the zoo and was taken from the wild it would be much more dense) Volume and density Lion: Humerus 525 (1.29) Radius-ulna= 380 (1.38) Femur= 473 (1.27) Tibia-Fibula= 311 (1.37) Kodiak/Alaskan bear: Humerus 580 (1.29) Radius-ulna= 452 (1.38) Femur= 588 (1.32) Tibia-Fibula= 480 (1.21) So as you can see the lion's bone density is just as tough as the kodiak bears in the front limbs, the other I seen was different but this shows the lion with the lower hind feet denser than the kodiak, so again...looking at bones and for those that are making their own assumptions out of thin air that bears have more compact bone in all areas is false. There is no apex predator that is more compact than the lion, tigers are elongated, lithe and thin, bears have all their weight in the lower half and body (which the femur in study proves), and lions are top heavy for blows with the paws. POUND FOR POUND LION HAS THE STRONGEST BONE (Highest muscle mass for a reason!) Dense skeletal muscle- Compact bones *Image 2: The lion's fore leg. (Source: The Menageries: Quadrupeds, Described and drawn from living subjects. Vol. 1, by James Rennie, 1829 p.175) *Image 3: Did you know? Lions appear to have no bone marrow (hollow space) ABOUT THE BEAR The endoskeletons provide support for the body, protect internal organs, and allow for movement through contraction of muscles attached to the skeleton. The humerus is a long bone of the upper limb or forelimb of land vertebrates. The humerus, and other long bones, are hollow tubes, like a straw. The empty space does not provide structural support. It is called the medullary cavity. It is filled up by the bone marrow. DYK? Lions have thicker bone walls than bears: In the cats about 55.65% of the humerus was taken up by this hollow space. In bears it was about 59.3% of their humerus. The bones of bears have the relatively biggest cavities, meaning the actual walls of their bones are the relatively thinnest. This means relative to his size; the bear's front limbs are not design to support stronger muscles than the feline muscles. Therefore, at equal size, the feline anatomy is pound per pound stronger than the bear. The skeleton is a structural frame that supports an animal body. Bones have their limitations, a great part of the bear's bones is to support his great weight, the rest is to support his muscles. Therefore, to be equal to the feline the bear needs to be much bigger. The bears have the advantage of the size and great body protection from his thick fur and some 35% or so of body fat. At equal weight, a bear is not stronger but he still benefits of great protection. Few people have any conception of a lion's paw, The dissection of the muscles of the fore-arm of the lion gives some idea of the strength that once reposed in those knotty cords, but the force of the blow can only be judged from its effects. (-Force of a lion's paw, George Wood, 1856, p.55) So that shuts the book on bears can tank lion hits, or bears can dish out more punishment because of denser bones, not to mention paw blows are not in the usual method of attack from bears. We don't see them striking each other with blows to the head" There are just two things that I don't get, one is the study of the humerus, the bone in the forearm, with the 55 percent in cats, and the 59 percent in bears, but yz had shown me before that the study itself is questionable, as it shows that sloth bears are somehow more slender than canids, and the other thing is the supposed claim that " the notion that a bear can tank a lion paw strike is debunked"? In the book Circus Boy, by Ryley Cooper, there was an account where a lion was fighting a grizzly, and the account says: " The lion swung into its usual three foot fighting pose, lunging terrific blows with the fourth which were disregarded by the grizzly, which closed in, caught the lion to him, crushed the life  dis-re-gardverb  pay no attention to; ignore From many accounts I have read, I'm sure a lion's paw strike is powerful, but I doubt it can one shot a full grown grizzlyÂ
|
|