BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Jun 1, 2023 19:44:02 GMT -5
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Jun 1, 2023 19:58:53 GMT -5
Other ones I found, one thing that's been on my mind, despite the plantigrade build of a bear vs the digitigrade build, if a bear can deliver a more powerful swipe and are better swipers than lions, than how come the bear is not known for thousands of years for having a powerful swipe, like a lion has. But I don't know, what's y'all takes on this
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Post by brobear on Jun 1, 2023 23:53:11 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/ Mediolateral forces were significantly higher than would be expected for a large erect mammal, almost to the extent of a sprawling crocodilian. There may be morphological or energetic explanations for the use of the running walk rather than the trot. The high medial forces (produced from a lateral push by the animal) could be caused by frontal plane movement of the carpus and elbow by bears. Overall, while grizzly bears share some similarities with large cursorial species, their locomotor kinetics have unique characteristics. Additional studies are needed to determine whether these characters are a feature of all bears or plantigrade species. VGRF = vertical ground reaction force. *Brown bears share some similarities with large cursorial species, their locomotor kinetics have unique characteristics. *Vertical ground reaction forces is significantly more pronounced in the hindlimb,however,VGRF in forelim is still relatively high. "The high medial forces (produced from a lateral push by the animal) could be caused by frontal plane movement of the carpus and elbow by bears" It forced me to focused on the carpus of brown bears. Sylvie McKenzie said she was driving along a highway a few kilometres west of Jasper when she noticed two bears running along the road ahead.She said she slowed down to let the bears cross the road, but only the female bear did so. The second bear – a male – simply stopped and stared at her. McKenzie said she then started driving, putting her car between the two bears. Sylvie McKenzie Asked whether she has any advice for drivers caught in the same situation in the future, McKenzie had simple advice: 'Stop, turn around, wait for a few minutes and go back.' (CBC) "The male didn't like it at all, so he decided to take his feet, charge and hit my car with his two front paws," she said. "[He] just came and pounced on my car with full force and full speed." McKenzie said the car rocked violently when the bear hit it, giving her a close-up view of the bear’s face. "I could see his teeth, the drool on his face. I tried to speed up and put my foot on the gas pedal to get away as fast as I could." Later, she found grizzly prints all over the side of her car, along with two big dents and several scratches. It seem that carpal bone have a high resistance to mechanical deformation. Grizzly bear front paws are surprisingly heavy,maybe due to massive carpal bones? This is the most accurate description of the striking ability IMHO: "...The attack of a Bear is usually sudden and rapid, and he either tries to deal his opponent a blow with a forepaw by executing a rapid and violent movement to the side ,or he quickly trots up to his enemy ,suddenly lift himself on his hind-legs in the immediate proximity of his foe whom he tries to knock down with a violent stroke of the front-paw,or else he deals him a sound blow and gives him a quick bite..."
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Post by brobear on Jun 1, 2023 23:54:28 GMT -5
carnivoraforum.com/index/ by Ursus Arctos.
When wrestling with the forelimbs it is probably a very important factor. Alternatively, if an animal's jaws are well adapted to wrestling it can probably wrestle well despite limited flexibility-even if lightly built, thanks to efficient strength. I would guess that (as people like Gun claimed) heavily built canids like pitbulls can wrestle extremely well.
It may depend. When fighting with forelimbs however perhaps flexibility (maintenance of strength over a greater range of motion) is more important (but naturally only up to a certain point). Considering the benefits of reduced flexibility to terrestrial locomotion, it seems unlikely that terrestrial animals would be beyond it.
For any given muscle mass there must be an optimal point between the trade off of flexibility and strength as they each struggle to get into a position to bite without getting bitten back. One explanation for the number of species that rear up when fighting is related to the limited range of optimal strength (lack of flexibility) of the forelimbs: Nonetheless, bipedal posture may also bestow specific advantages for fighting with the forelimbs that emerge from the mechanics of quadrupedal locomotion and the contractile physiology of striated muscle.
Terrestrial vertebrates have evolved to do work against gravity during locomotion. This requires that the mobility and strength of limbs be oriented towards the substrate. Bipedal posture reorients the trunk from pronograde to orthograde, allowing quadrupeds to defend themselves and strike and manipulate an opponent with their forelimbs over the locomotor range of motion; the range of motion that can presumably produce the most force and power. Consider a galloping thoroughbred horse. At full speed, each forelimb is in contact with the ground for much less than a tenth of a second and, during that brief period, it applies a peak ground force of more than 2.5 times body weight [3]. Thus, bipedal posture repositions the axis of the body so that the locomotor range of motion of the forelimbs can be directed at an opponent, allowing quadrupeds to strike, grapple and defend themselves with their forelimbs' greatest capacity to do work. From The Advantage of Standing Up to Fight and the Evolution of Habitual Bipedalism in Hominins.
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Post by brobear on Jun 1, 2023 23:55:29 GMT -5
Continued.... The importance of in-lever moment arms to strength has been vastly overrated. If muscle mass and flexibility are held constant, fiber length is forced to increase in proportion with the moment arm. The resulting decrease in cross section area (and thus force) means that there is then no change in force. See: "Muscle Insertions do not incur mechanical advantage" by Carl Gans AND "Muscle Architecture in Relation to Function" by Carl Gans and Abbot Gaunt
Of course-as flexibility does differ tremendously between mammalian species, we can't actually assume that it is constant. Thus, we could speculate that longer in lever arms do represent a decrease in flexibility and thus an increase in strength/force production. However, consider: Canids, Felids, and Ursids as a generalization, in lever arm size may be ordered ursids > felids > canids Flexibility of the limbs, however, is also ordered: Ursids > felids > canids Suggesting that the muscle length/in lever arm length ratios are: Ursids > felids > canids And thus, torque around joints relative to muscle mass are: Canids > felids > ursids
The opposite relation we expect from looking at in lever moment arms only.
Consider the deltopectoral crest of U. arctos compared with P. leo. Info we have: 1) That of U. arctos is ~17% longer. 2) U. arctos has a shoulder joint providing for a greater range of movement-particularly greater abduction. 3) Normal gait of U. arctos involves the humerus being more abducted.
The pectoral muscles (among the largest muscles inserting on the deltopectoral crest) adducts the humerus (the opposite movement of abduction). Considering "2)" and "3)" the pectoral of the bear must be able to produce strength over a wider range of movements (have a higher fiber length/moment arm ratio). Therefore, the longer moment arm of U. arctos is entirely misleading-it is probably P. leo that has the greater strength in adducting the humerus relative to pectoral muscle mass thanks to the lower fiber length/moment arm ratio. As Reddhole said before, using only a part of the picture can be very misleading, and I see that now (having used only the moment arm for ages)!
Out-lever arm (limb length) may be of fundamental importance. Looking back at the study comparing greyhounds and pitbulls, it is apparent that this was one of the largest differences (other than bone strength) between the two species. 2) Speed. Holding everything else constant, fibers will contract with similar speed with units of %length/time. This means that absolute speed of muscle contraction is proportional to absolute fiber length.
High fiber length/moment arm length gives greater speed (theoretically).
Lower fiber length/moment arm length gives greater torque/muscle mass around the joint, and thus greater force/muscle mass at the end of the outlever arm. Force/mass = acceleration; torque/moment of inertia= angular acceleration.
It is apparent that both the fastest and most cursorial animals have some of the lowest fiber length/moment arm, suggesting high acceleration is more important to both efficient running and reaching high speeds. -Note, however, that these animals tend to have longer limbs/mass, thus we should ideally factor in limb bone lengths as well. Different out lever arm lengths mean that torques/mass may not let us adequately predict force/muscle mass generated at the end of the limb.
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Post by brobear on Jun 1, 2023 23:56:02 GMT -5
Continued....
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Post by brobear on Jun 1, 2023 23:57:54 GMT -5
About above post..... Consider animals A and B: A) Has a higher fiber length/in lever arm ratio B) Has a lower fiber length/in lever arm ratio
If both of them move the joint with the same angular acceleration, the muscles of animal A will be contracting relatively more slowly, thus producing a greater force relative to cross section area. For this reason actual differences in force production are much more complicated than the simple estimations. This is in addition to the strong decline in force production over a range of movements associated with lower fiber length/in lever arm ratios noted in a previous post.
Reduced force at higher speeds (especially for lower fiber length/lever arm ratios) may set limits on ultimate speed, despite higher acceleration at lower speeds resulting from high force. The high resistance forces associated with running likely mean force is more important, but with lower resistance-such as striking with the limbs-higher fiber length/in lever arm may be more important. Haven't read the Megatherium article, but that is likely something important to consider (and would be a good starting point to dig into it).
This post was hurried and done sloppily, especially with the distinction of torque & angular acceleration + speed w/ force & acceleration + speed. Out lever arm (limb length) is a factor for the latter, not the former. Hopefully I didn't really fumble that throughout this post. I'll happily clarify if something isn't clear or is messed up.
Muscle pennation (discussed in the chimp, cheetah, and muscle architecture articles) is also an important factor. However, I am done for now.
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Post by brobear on Jun 2, 2023 0:01:11 GMT -5
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/canada/1490932/Bear-kills-wolf-in-grizzly-attack.html Bear kills wolf in grizzly attack By Fred Langan in Toronto12:01AM BST 28 May 2005 When a four-year old grizzly bear was put in the same five-acre enclosure as four grey wolves, each about the size of a large alsatian, at the Grouse Mountain Refuge for Endangered Wildlife in Vancouver, it was supposed to "provide wildlife with the most natural setting possible". Rather too natural for the dozen or so tourists who watched in horror when the alpha-male wolf went nose-to-nose with the bear over a cow bone. With a single swipe of its paw the 500lb bear took the wolf's head off. In the wild the two species seldom meet. The three remaining wolves are now in a separate enclosure.
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Post by brobear on Jun 2, 2023 0:02:31 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/1199/bear-capable-delivering-powerful-force Some basic information : EAR ATTACKS (Copyright © 2001 by Steven P. French, M.D.) The following is the text for the 43rd chapter in the Fourth Edition of Wilderness Medicine, edited by Paul S. Auerbach, published by Mosby in 2001 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Auerbach BEAR-INDUCED INJURIES Bear-inflicted injuries range from minor, treated on an outpatient basis, to complex, requiring hospitalization and surgery, typically resulting in significant cosmetic and functional disability. In this regard, bear attacks are similar to most other animal attacks, particularly those inflicted by large animals. The character of such injuries is determined in part by the three main sources: teeth, claws, and paws. The teeth of bears, especially the canines, are large and sturdy. Although the teeth are not particularly sharp, the power of the jaw muscles allows the teeth to penetrate deep into soft tissues and to fracture facial bones and bones of the hand and forearm with ease. The trauma characteristically results from punctures, with shearing, tearing, and crushing forces (Figure 43-20). The claws are another important source of trauma. Although the claws on the front pads can be as long as human fingers, they are not particularly sharp on grizzlies and polar bears. The bear’s shoulders, however, provide the force and speed that allows claws to cause significant soft tissue damage in a scraping maneuver that results in deep, parallel gashes. Because black bear claws are sharper and more curved, the cuts tend to have sharper, less ragged edges. The bear paw is capable of delivering a powerful force, resulting in significant blunt trauma, particularly to the head and neck, ribcage, and abdominal cavity, especially solid organ rupture. Therefore victims of bear attacks should be evaluated for occult blunt trauma. ORIGINAL PAPER Large carnivore attacks on hominins during the Pleistocene:a forensic approach with a Neanderthal example Edgard Camarós www.academia.edu/12436456/Large_carnivore_attacks_on_hominins_during_the_Pleistocene_A_forensic_approach_with_a_Neanderthal_example
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Post by brobear on Jun 2, 2023 0:14:03 GMT -5
In my own words; (1) at size-parity (equal head-and-body length) a bear is much stronger than a cat. (2) a bear has stronger upper-body strength. (3) A bear has more freedom of movement in his arms. (4) The upper-body strength of a brown bear is enhanced by his muscular shoulder hump. (5) The skull and neck, as well as his thicker body, can withstand even the most devastating paw-strike. (6) A bears paws are hard enough to absorb the repercussions of delivering a paw-strike. A cat's paws are soft, designed for stealth. (7) A bear has incredible bipedal ability, which provides a more powerful paw-strike.
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Jun 2, 2023 7:51:40 GMT -5
Appreciate it info man, but some questions are still in my head, if a bear is capable of delivering a better and more powerful swipe than a lion, why has the lion been represented as having the best striking ability of all animals since ancient times, and with all the videos of lions and bears fighting, lions usually strike, while the bears wrestle, and why have multiple biologist said that bears don't strike, I mean it's just a concern
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Post by brobear on Jun 2, 2023 8:31:58 GMT -5
Appreciate it info man, but some questions are still in my head, if a bear is capable of delivering a better and more powerful swipe than a lion, why has the lion been represented as having the best striking ability of all animals since ancient times, and with all the videos of lions and bears fighting, lions usually strike, while the bears wrestle, and why have multiple biologist said that bears don't strike, I mean it's just a concern Quote; "Appreciate it info man, but some questions are still in my head, if a bear is capable of delivering a better and more powerful swipe than a lion, why has the lion been represented as having the best striking ability of all animals since ancient times..." *Total bullpatties. Quote; "...and with all the videos of lions and bears fighting, lions usually strike, while the bears wrestle..." *OK, I'll explain this again. Bears learn how to fight by play-wrestling from early cubhood. When one bear slapjacks another bear, no real damage is done, because of the bear's incredible durability.. Therefore, instinctively, a bear does not consider a paw-strike as a killing or crippling method. On the other hand, those paw-swipes from a lion or a tiger, which are delivered with less force that a paw-strike from another bear, can only serve to anger the bear. When it comes down to wrestling, a big cat cannot compete. Btw; show us the source of, "multiple biologist said that bears don't strike."
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Post by brobear on Jun 2, 2023 8:41:05 GMT -5
akibeh19; you can read from: Brown Bears-Strength and Leverage / Bears in General-Advantages and Disadvantages in a face-off./ Strength and Girth Comparison of Bears and Big Cats / Fighting and Killing Techniques / Paws and Jaws.
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Jun 2, 2023 8:44:32 GMT -5
These are the screenshots.
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Jun 2, 2023 15:12:26 GMT -5
Also,have you heard of the story of Parnell the lion, as what I hear is that he killed 3 bears and fought 3 bulls before dying by the 4 the one, but the newspaper claimed that a bear killed Parnell quick, and that bears always beat the lions in California pit fights, but from lion fans, that is untrue, because apparently, California has the bear as the native animal, and were biased for the bears and were trying to "manipulate" and "cover up" the events where Parnell killed multiple bears, because of "biased Californian bear fans" could you or someone who knows the full story give some clarification.
This is the story I found about Parnell: historybanter.com/animal-cage-fighting-in-mexico/ I already talked to yz about this, but what do you think?
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Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2023 0:57:13 GMT -5
akibeh19; you gather your information from radical big cat fanboy playgrounds such as this trash dump - www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalfightclub/cases-of-lions-dominating-bears-t249.html The real fight between Parnell and Ramadam is (or at least was) posted on a wall of the capital building of California (actual newspaper clipping) as well as being printed in the book, 'California Grizzly' (which was published before the home computer age ). The California grizzly killed the African lion in a matter of seconds. The story was popular and printed in newspapers all over the U.S. with each paper giving the story their own spin; each reporter writing an exciting story to sell their newspapers. But (probably) the true tale came from the eye-witness from California who stated, "... California, grizzly bear "Ramadam" killed the African lion "Parnell" "like a cat would a rat", he killed him so fast that the audience hardly knew what had happened." Besides the great variation of stories printed in various newspapers around the country, online we have radical juvenile big cat fanboys printing lies - false information - fake news - crap. Also, we have shown you accounts of bears administering a paw-strike; even providing video proof, and you continue with your fanatical attacks. Bears do use paw-strikes during a fight - sometimes; not in every fight - because that is not their most common method of killing. Reason being, a paw-strike is of little consequence to the highly durable bear. They learn how to wrestle as cubs, and fight each other more often than other predators. So, to the bear, a paw-strike is more of a response action than a planed action. But here, I am repeating myself. Enough is enough.
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Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2023 3:05:09 GMT -5
You mean in this video, the mother bear strikes the male bear 3:19 This powerful paw-strike from a she-bear barely staggered the boar grizzly. It might have broken the neck of a lion or a tiger.
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Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2023 3:13:23 GMT -5
Wildlife photographer Brad Josephs managed to capture footage of a lifetime as he recorded two ferocious bears going at each other for almost 10 minutes. There was, as usual, no paw-strike, which is not unusual, because a paw-strike is ineffective in a bear fight. If one of these beasts were fighting against a lion or a tiger, the fight would have ended much sooner with a dead cat.
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BJA
Sun Bear
Posts: 24
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Post by BJA on Jun 3, 2023 4:03:40 GMT -5
The video is unavailable, but I hear you, appreciate it.
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Post by brobear on Jun 3, 2023 4:12:53 GMT -5
The video is unavailable, but I hear you, appreciate it. Click on where it reads: Watch on Youtube.
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