|
Post by brobear on Jan 12, 2018 5:20:21 GMT -5
The first grizzly lived in Pleistocene China. I have thus far discovered absolutely no information on this original grizzly except that Ursus arctos began life out on the open tundra. Unlike other bear species, a grizzly could not dash up a tree to escape predators. Instead, he had to learn how to fight - rather like a boy growing up on the streets of a tough neighborhood. As this grizzly population began to spread out across China and beyond, there is no doubt that some of these tough old bears dwelled in the domain of the Wanhsien tiger. It is thought that this tiger was roughly in the size range of the Amur and Bengal tigers, though thicker of build - probably having an average weight of perhaps 500 pounds. wildfact.com/forum/ ... by Guate Gojira: The Wanhsien tiger (Panthera tigris acutidens) was the subspecies of tiger that originated from the Second wave of Sunda tigers to the mainland. Apparently, they suppressed the "old" form of the original China tiger (and could also probably extirpated the old Longdan "tiger" too). This new tiger form was larger and with better carnivore adaptations. With time, at about 150,000 years ago, these tigers returned to the Sunda shelf with a Third wave, this time, they suppressed (or mixed) the original form of Sunda tigers and produced the Ngandong tiger. However, at this time, the Wanhsien tigers were already large, so when they arrived to the Sunda, they reached incredible dimensions. One important point is that GrizzlyClaws is correct, the only published specimens are those from the "southern" area, although other partial specimens from the north of China are also known. The problem is that there are practically no long bones and the few available with the few skulls, are very small. The most common fossils are dentition and although they seems larger in comparison with modern tigers (Kurten describe it like that), there are some exceptional specimens from Indian and Russia that reached its size. What we need is the size of the huge skull and other large bones that are in private collections, that will be interesting as they seems to be HUGE, but for the moment, the only confirmed giant is the Ngandong tiger from Java. Finally, after the Toba eruption in Sumatra, about 78,000 years ago, the last population of Wanhsien tigers that survived in the north of Indochina-South of China, was the one that originated all the modern Mainland tiger populations. In a form, we can say that the Wanhsien tiger never get entirely extinct, they only adapted to its new environment i the form of the present tiger. Just one final thing, don't confuse the Longdan "tiger" (Panthera zdanskyi) with the Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis). The first one is an earlier relative of the tiger, a sister species, that existed in China in the beginning of the Pleistocene. The Ngandong tiger was a true tiger that existed in Java in the late Pleistocene. In one occasion, Asad (the liar of the lion fans) tried to create a confusion about this, but I destroyed him and cleared the confusion. I put this again, just in case.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 12, 2018 7:10:41 GMT -5
prehistoric-fauna.com/Panthera-tigris-acutidens Wanhsien tiger Panthera tigris acutidens (Wanhsien Tiger) (Panthera tigris acutidens Zdansky, 1928) Order: Carnivora Family: Felidae Time period: late Pleistocene of East Asia (0,8 – 0,2 million years ago) Size: 2.3 m in length, 100 -120 cm in height, 150 - 350 kg of weight. The Wanhsien tiger, is an extinct subspecies of tiger that lived in Asia from the late Pliocene until the middle Pleistocene. They were driven to extinction in the islands of Indonesia by another tiger subspecies, the Trinil tiger (P. t. trinilensis) and in Asia by yet another subspecies, the South China tiger (P. t. amoyensis) The Wanhsien tiger is the earliest known extinct tiger subspecies, and populated a huge majority of Asia. It is larger than Siberian tigers, it grew to sizes of 2.3 m ( 7 feet 6 inches ) in length, 120 cm ( 3 feet 11 inches ) in height, and 200 to 350 kg ( 771.6 pounds ) in weight.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 12, 2018 7:18:25 GMT -5
The Wanhsien tiger was pretty-much at size parity with the Pleistocene grizzly. My nickel is on the bear.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 7:22:23 GMT -5
Visual comparison.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 15, 2018 3:31:41 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ GrizzlyClaws: Based on the private collection, some Wanhsien tigers look like brute, it even makes the large male Bengal from Nepal looks gracile in comparison. GuateGojira: The Wanhsien tiger (Panthera tigris acutidens) was the subspecies of tiger that originated from the Second wave of Sunda tigers to the mainland. Apparently, they suppressed the "old" form of the original China tiger (and could also probably extirpated the old Longdan "tiger" too). This new tiger form was larger and with better carnivore adaptations. With time, at about 150,000 years ago, these tigers returned to the Sunda shelf with a Third wave, this time, they suppressed (or mixed) the original form of Sunda tigers and produced the Ngandong tiger. However, at this time, the Wanhsien tigers were already large, so when they arrived to the Sunda, they reached incredible dimensions. One important point is that GrizzlyClaws is correct, the only published specimens are those from the "southern" area, although other partial specimens from the north of China are also known. The problem is that there are practically no long bones and the few available with the few skulls, are very small. The most common fossils are dentition and although they seems larger in comparison with modern tigers (Kurten describe it like that), there are some exceptional specimens from Indian and Russia that reached its size. What we need is the size of the huge skull and other large bones that are in private collections, that will be interesting as they seems to be HUGE, but for the moment, the only confirmed giant is the Ngandong tiger from Java. Finally, after the Toba eruption in Sumatra, about 78,000 years ago, the last population of Wanhsien tigers that survived in the north of Indochina-South of China, was the one that originated all the modern Mainland tiger populations. In a form, we can say that the Wanhsien tiger never get entirely extinct, they only adapted to its new environment i the form of the present tiger. Just one final thing, don't confuse the Longdan "tiger" (Panthera zdanskyi) with the Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis). The first one is an earlier relative of the tiger, a sister species, that existed in China in the beginning of the Pleistocene. The Ngandong tiger was a true tiger that existed in Java in the late Pleistocene. In one occasion, Asad (the liar of the lion fans) tried to create a confusion about this, but I destroyed him and cleared the confusion. I put this again, just in case.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 15, 2018 3:35:42 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ By GuateGojira. According with Mazák et al. (2010), this sister species of the tiger evolved from the same ancestor, but formed a different species. There are several fossils labeled as "tigers" in China, all of them teeth and fragments, but none has been correctly studied and are probably from other species. We most remember also Panthera youngi, anteriorly labeled as a posible "lion", but now classified as a different species or a relative of the tiger or the leopard, like the more basal Panthera palaeosinensis, which has a great resemblance to the lion and the leopard, but in Asia. I found very difficult to believe that three Panthera species lived together in China at about 2.55-2.16 MYA. So, I think and this is my personal guess, that the "tigers" in mainland, before the arrival of the Sunda ones, were a mix between a basal tiger species and those of the Longdan species, and I also think that Panthera youngi was not a lion, like Harrrinton think, but probably also part of the basal tiger species. Based in the more complete fossils of the Sunda shelf, I think that the "pure" tigers evolved in this are, in Java, at about 2-1.6 MYA, and they suppressed the old form in China, like the basic theory state. After all, the fossils in Java are barely different than those from the modern species, based in the description of Brongersman.
I can finish with this idea: The basal tiger in China and the other cats (zdanskyi and youngi) from this time were probably of the same species (deeper studies can confirm, or un-confirm, this), the one extirpated by the true tiger, that fully evolved in the Sunda. I put this theory, based in the scanty and confusing fossil record in China and the relative more complete record in Java.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 15, 2018 3:41:43 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ By GuateGojira. Polar: So I am guessing 500-600 pounds for the Wanhsien Tiger should be a good average estimate? GuateGojira: I will guess that about 500 lb - 227 kg would be correct, which is more than modern Amur-Bengal tigers, with figures of 204 kg and 213 kg respectively (old and modern records). Peter: Over the years, I saw hundreds of captive big cats. In my eyes, an adult male lion or tiger of 400 pounds is an impressive animal. A 500-pound animal is very big.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 15, 2018 3:52:19 GMT -5
So, what have we learned here? The grizzly evolved from the Etruscan bear somewhere between one-million and one-and-a-half million years ago in China. From the beginning the great bear had to contend with big cats. The biggest of these big cats was the Wanhsien tiger which averaged between 500 and 600 pounds with a normal max of 350 kg. This tiger was brawny, being thicker built than a modern Bengal tiger. 350 kilograms is equal to 771.62 pounds (avoirdupois)
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 15, 2018 14:07:15 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ Brobear: These Wanhsien tigers lived in China where the original brown bear lived which I refer to as the Chinese grizzly as I have yet to find any name attached to it. In fact, no information at all. Any idea the size of these bears that shared the land with the Wanhsien tiger? GrizzlyClaws: Not much description about the fossils of these original grizzlies. I assume they were comparable to the modern grizzlies, and at some of period of time, more likely 300 kya, when they migrated to Europe, they suddenly magnified their size to the level of the Cave bear.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 17, 2018 4:41:40 GMT -5
Tigers and grizzlies have been natural enemies since Ursus arctos number #1. ( the Adam & Eve of grizzlies )... from Ursus etruscus ( Etruscan bear ).
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 30, 2019 7:37:47 GMT -5
prehistoric-fauna.com/Ngandong-tiger Order: Carnivora Family: Felidae Time period: first half of the late Pleistocene of Southeast Asia (195.000 years ago) Size: 2.3 m in length, 120 cm in height, 250 - 350+ kg of weight. East Asia was probably the center of origin Pantherinae. The oldest tiger fossils indicate that about two million years ago tigers were quite widespread in this region. However, the glacial and interglacial climatic variations and other geological events caused repeated changes in the geographic area. According to current information, the common ancestor of modern tiger is out of time parameters 157-72.000 years ago. This is much later than expected at the leopard, which is believed to be originated in Africa 825-470.000 years ago and arrived in Asia 300-170.000 years ago. Ngandong tiger was the largest subspecies of Panthera tigris. The body weight of this predator reached 350+ kg, and height at the withers - 120 cm. Nobody could argue with such a giant, except perhaps awful Mosbach lion (Panthera leo fossilis), which was even greater. According to the assumptions of the last of genetic research, the tigers have almost entirely disappeared at the end of the Pleistocene era, maybe around 10.000-12.000 years ago. The small remaining part of population survived, probably in the territory of modern China. Ngandong Tiger is Endemic from Ngandong, Solo Region, Central Java Province, Indonesia. From this region the tigers again began to spread by migrating along the river following their prey closely - mainly deer and wild boars. Although the all continental tigers are closely related and can be considered as regional populations, rather than separate subspecies, they have developed definite physical and morphological properties to adapt to environmental conditions. Igor Kazanov
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Oct 30, 2019 7:39:05 GMT -5
prehistoric-fauna.com/Panthera-tigris-acutidens Wanhsien tiger 60 reviews Panthera tigris acutidens (Wanhsien Tiger) (Panthera tigris acutidens Zdansky, 1928) Order: Carnivora Family: Felidae Time period: late Pleistocene of East Asia (0,8 – 0,2 million years ago) Size: 2.3 m in length, 100 -120 cm in height, 150 - 350 kg of weight. The Wanhsien tiger, is an extinct subspecies of tiger that lived in Asia from the late Pliocene until the middle Pleistocene. They were driven to extinction in the islands of Indonesia by another tiger subspecies, the Trinil tiger (P. t. trinilensis) and in Asia by yet another subspecies, the South China tiger (P. t. amoyensis) The Wanhsien tiger is the earliest known extinct tiger subspecies, and populated a huge majority of Asia. It is larger than Siberian tigers, it grew to sizes of 2.3 m in length, 120 cm in height, and 200 to 350 kg in weight.
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 30, 2019 9:04:09 GMT -5
It seems the Ngadong tiger has one rival: the Mosbach lion.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 26, 2019 7:12:37 GMT -5
NGANDONG TIGERNgandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis Von Koenigswald,1933) Order: Carnivora Family: Felidae Time period: first half of the late Pleistocene of Southeast Asia (195.000 years ago) Size: 2.3 m in length, 120 cm in height, 250 - 350+ kg of weight. East Asia was probably the center of origin Pantherinae. The oldest tiger fossils indicate that about two million years ago tigers were quite widespread in this region. However, the glacial and interglacial climatic variations and other geological events caused repeated changes in the geographic area. According to current information, the common ancestor of modern tiger is out of time parameters 157-72.000 years ago. This is much later than expected at the leopard, which is believed to be originated in Africa 825-470.000 years ago and arrived in Asia 300-170.000 years ago. Ngandong tiger was the largest subspecies of Panthera tigris. The body weight of this predator reached 350+ kg, and height at the withers - 120 cm. Nobody could argue with such a giant, except perhaps awful Mosbach lion (Panthera leo fossilis), which was even greater. According to the assumptions of the last of genetic research, the tigers have almost entirely disappeared at the end of the Pleistocene era, maybe around 10.000-12.000 years ago. The small remaining part of population survived, probably in the territory of modern China. Ngandong Tiger is Endemic from Ngandong, Solo Region, Central Java Province, Indonesia. From this region the tigers again began to spread by migrating along the river following their prey closely - mainly deer and wild boars. Although the all continental tigers are closely related and can be considered as regional populations, rather than separate subspecies, they have developed definite physical and morphological properties to adapt to environmental conditions. prehistoric-fauna.com/Ngandong-tiger
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2019 9:12:46 GMT -5
Ngandong tiger:
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2019 9:21:05 GMT -5
Head and body length ( max ): 7 feet 7.68 inches. Shoulder height ( max ): 3 feet 11 inches. Weight ( max probable ): 368 kg = 811 pounds. Weight ( max possible ): 882 pounds.
From reply #2 at "Tiger vs Grizzly": According to above chart... ( Russian black grizzly ).
Males: head and body length from 164 cm to 252 cm ( 5 feet 5 inches to 8 feet 3 inches ) - average 196 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ). shoulder height from 100 cm to 128 cm ( 3 feet 3 inches to 4 feet 2 inches ) - average 115 cm ( 3 feet 9 inches ). chest circumference from 121 cm to 154 cm ( 3 feet 11 inches to 5 feet 7 inches ) - average 137 cm ( 4 feet 6 inches ). weight from 260 kg to 321 kg ( 573 pounds to 708 pounds ) - average 264 kg ( 582 pounds ).
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2019 9:41:31 GMT -5
The Ngandong tiger ( max ) has a head-and-body length of roughly 1 foot 3 inches greater than the average black grizzly. The Ngandong tiger ( max ) has a shoulder height of roughly 2 inches above the average black grizzly. The Ngandong tiger ( max ) weighs roughly 811 pounds - the average black grizzly weighs 582 pounds. This is why I believe that extinct big cat weights are over-estimated. The size ratio between the male Ngandong tiger and the male Ussuri brown bear is similar as to that between the Amur tiger and the Ussuri brown she-bear. Tiger: head and body length - 195 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ) - Grizzly: head and body length 196 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ). Tiger: shoulder height - 93 cm ( 3 feet ) - Grizzly: shoulder height - 115 cm ( 3 feet 9 inches ). Tiger: chest girth - 119 cm ( 3 feet 11 inches ) - Grizzly: 137 cm ( 4 feet 6 inches ). Tiger: weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ) - Grizzly: 264 kg ( 582 pounds ).
A comparison of the Amur tigress and the Amur ( black grizzly ) she-bear - Average Sized Animals:
Tiger: head and body length - 172 cm ( 5 feet 8 inches ) - Grizzly: head and body length - 160 cm ( 5 feet 3 inches ). Tiger: shoulder height - 78 cm ( 2 feet 8 inches ) - Grizzly: shoulder height - 96 cm ( 3 feet 2 inches ). Tiger: weight - 137.5 kg ( 303 pounds ) - Grizzly: weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ).
*Average mature male Amur tiger and average mature female Amur grizzly = 189 kg ( 417 pounds ) each - the bear is 35.56 cm ( 14 inches ) shorter in head and body length.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2019 10:59:18 GMT -5
*Average mature male Amur tiger and average mature female Amur grizzly = 189 kg ( 417 pounds ) each - the bear is 35.56 cm ( 14 inches ) shorter in head and body length. The Ngandong tiger ( max ) has a head-and-body length of roughly 1 foot 3 inches greater than the average black grizzly. The max Ngandong tiger and the average mature male Ussuri brown bear should have roughly the same weight: 1- Grizzly: 264 kg ( 582 pounds ). 2- smedz says: My guess on the average is probably 600 pounds or so. See what i did; just proved you right and myself wrong.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2019 13:05:32 GMT -5
Russian grizzly / Ussuri brown bear / Amur brown bear / black grizzly / Ursus arctos lasiotus Males: head and body length from 164 cm to 252 cm ( 5 feet 5 inches to 8 feet 3 inches ) - average 196 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ). shoulder height from 100 cm to 128 cm ( 3 feet 3 inches to 4 feet 2 inches ) - average 115 cm ( 3 feet 9 inches ). chest circumference from 121 cm to 154 cm ( 3 feet 11 inches to 5 feet 7 inches ) - average 137 cm ( 4 feet 6 inches ). weight from 260 kg to 321 kg ( 573 pounds to 708 pounds ) - average 264 kg ( 582 pounds ). Females: head and body length from 137 cm to 230 cm ( 4 feet 6 inches to 7 feet 7 inches ) - average 160 cm ( 5 feet 3 inches ). shoulder height from 82 cm to 126 cm ( 2 feet 8 inches to 4 feet 2 inches ) - average 96 cm ( 3 feet 2 inches ). chest circumference from 120 cm to 149 cm ( 3 feet 11 inches to 4 feet 11 inches ) - average 132 cm ( 4 feet 4 inches ). weight from 120 kg to 280 kg ( 265 pounds to 617 pounds ) - average 189 kg ( 417 pounds ).
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2019 13:09:34 GMT -5
Ngandong tiger:
|
|