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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2020 10:43:27 GMT -5
Patherine says: The lower foothills of the mountains in places like Colombia have ocassional jaguar and spectacle bears passing by. According to the article that spoke of the Mexican jaguar who killed the black bear sow the spectacled bears in South America appear to avoid Jaguars where they are sympatric. There's not much data on it unfortunately. carnivora.net/viewtopic.php?p=105852#p105852
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 20, 2020 12:12:05 GMT -5
Patherine says: The lower foothills of the mountains in places like Colombia have ocassional jaguar and spectacle bears passing by. According to the article that spoke of the Mexican jaguar who killed the black bear sow the spectacled bears in South America appear to avoid Jaguars where they are sympatric. There's not much data on it unfortunately. carnivora.net/viewtopic.php?p=105852#p105852 And he might be right. There is basically no info on these interactions. But the Spectacled bear basically lives in trees, so this might be a very passive bear although it has attacked mountain Tapir before.
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Post by brobear on Mar 21, 2020 1:30:55 GMT -5
Still, nothing unusual about a jaguar ambushing an Andean she-bear his own weight or less. Except for the fact that their meeting of each other would certainly be rare. The bear likes high elevations while the cat prefers lower elevations. Still, I'd like to see for myself any data on jaguar / bear interactions.
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Post by brobear on Mar 21, 2020 1:46:52 GMT -5
Posted by Pantherine on carnivora.net/viewtopic.php?p=105871#p105871 www.earthtouchnews.com/natural-world/predator-vs-prey/americas-celebrity-jaguar-el-jefe-is-a-bear-hunter/ While shadowing El Jefe in the Santa Rita backcountry, biologist Chris Bugbee discovered the strewn bones of a black bear, including a crushed, tooth-punctured skull (photographer Bill Hatcher was able to capture several snapshots of the remains). Assisting with the El Jefe-tracking task was Bugbee's dog Mayke, a Belgian Malinois specially trained to sniff out jaguar and ocelot poop. Back at the lab, analysis later confirmed that jaguar scat collected at the scene contained bear hairs. According to Bugbee's colleague (and wife) Aletris Neils, with whom he runs the nonprofit Conservation CATalyst, the bear skeleton likely belonged to a young adult sow. The unusual find, Bugbee suggests, marks the first known instance of a jaguar preying on a black bear. Such an event could only occur in the American Southwest or northern Mexico, where the stomping grounds of the mainly temperate black bear and the mainly tropical/subtropical jaguar overlap. "It was north against south, and south won," Neils tells Smithsonian.
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Post by brobear on Mar 21, 2020 1:53:30 GMT -5
Also posted by Pantherine: citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.196.5692&rep=rep1&type=pdf Spectacled bears appear to avoid jaguar (Panthera onca), suggesting that jaguar might be considered a predator. The elevational ranges of these two species in Perú and Bolivia do not overlap on the same mountain slope, but do for 900m of elevation if the entire Cordillera Oriental is considered. 160 Here, jaguar can occur up to 1,500m in elevation and spectacled bears can descend as low as 600m in elevation.
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Post by brobear on Mar 21, 2020 2:14:03 GMT -5
Posted by TheUndertaker45 at: domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/683/leopard-jaguar-bear?page=2&scrollTo=26616 There is one account of El Jefé (an infamous Central American Jaguar) preying upon a young adult American black bear sow. It is available here: www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... 180960443/ However, before you read it there is one thing you have to take into account: A so called "bear expert" estimates the size of the bear by looking at her skull and puts her at ~230lbs. The incident happened way down in Arizona and as you know by Bergmann's rule: bears are relatively small down there. We unfortunately don't have any weight study on American black bears in Arizona, however, there is one study on Californian black bears (who live in close proximity) and mature females averaged 128lbs, so forget about the 230lbs weight figure, it's BS. Another thing is that El Jefé weighed ~120lbs when he was two years old; it is unknown when the incident of him killing the bear took place, he might have been bigger by then. Nevertheless, it is a valid account of jaguar predation upon an American black bear.
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Post by brobear on Mar 21, 2020 2:59:28 GMT -5
My response to Pantherine: Thank you Pantherine Interesting account about the jaguar and the black bear. Not hard to believe. As for jaguars and Andean bear, it sounds reasonable to assume that even a big boar Andean bear would avoid conflict as he has nothing to gain from any form of interaction with a big cat. It all makes sense. A jaguar would likely, if given the chance, ambush an adult Andean bear sow. Whether or not he would tackle a boar is anybody's guess. Jaguars, like lions ( IMHO ) seem to show courage above and beyond "basic cat behavior" - or so it seems.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 21, 2020 4:26:06 GMT -5
Well, we have no interactions between Andean bears and jaguars, maybe they meet, but nothing is so sure. But the bear is larger, Adult males average around 250 lbs, while adult male jaguars in South america average around 210 lbs.
so in a face to face fight, the bear should win at least 6/10 times.
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Post by brobear on Mar 21, 2020 4:38:12 GMT -5
Well, we have no interactions between Andean bears and jaguars, maybe they meet, but nothing is so sure. But the bear is larger, so in a face to face fight, it should win at least 6/10 times. This could be similar to the tiger/bear scenario. The Andean she-bears avoid a dangerous predator. I have no doubts that a big male jaguar would ambush a bear sow. If the she-bears are avoiding the big cats, then the boars would not wish to stay any great length of time where there are no females about. Consider also that this entire avoidance scenario between Andean bear and jaguar could be mere speculation based on nothing more than the fact that no actual encounters have been reported. I have not mentioned this before ( as I recall ) but like I told Pantherine, I believe that jaguars are a bit braver than typical cats. Equally so as with lions. A jaguar just might ( maybe ) attempt to defend a carcass should an Andean bear decide to be a kleptoparasite. We don't know if these little-known bears actually participate in this common bear behavior. But if this were to happen; my nickel is on the Andean bear boar.
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Post by brobear on Mar 28, 2020 15:14:46 GMT -5
I did another comparison between a 165lbs Sri Lankan sloth bear and a 125lbs Sri Lankan leopard; I kept to the weight data on Wikipedia as I couldn't find nothing scientific about them. I adjusted the sloth bear to the weight of the leopard to have a fair comparison; note that this really is a sloth bear model, it seems like a sun bear as it was in the rain and all his fluffy hair had become wet. What do you think? If you observe the size ration between the leopard and the sloth bear, pretty-much the same as between an Amur tiger and an Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 28, 2020 15:25:49 GMT -5
It's actually a bit larger, it depends whether you use the contemporary or the historical Siberian tiger. A Sri lankan sloth bear should definitely win against a Sri lankan leopard most of the time imo; unfortunately the data on the weights of Sri Lankan leopard is very old and probably outdated, there are a lot of large males living there mainly due to the lack of tigers. I guess the contemporary Sri Lankan leopards could be ~20lbs heavier.
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Post by brobear on Mar 28, 2020 15:32:21 GMT -5
It's actually a bit larger, it depends whether you use the contemporary or the historical Siberian tiger. A Sri lankan sloth bear should definitely win against a Sri lankan leopard most of the time imo; unfortunately the data on the weights of Sri Lankan leopard is very old and probably outdated, there are a lot of large males living there mainly due to the lack of tigers. I guess the contemporary Sri Lankan leopards could be ~20lbs heavier. Check out Reply #13. The sloth bear can and will displace a leopard with no physical contact. It is simply not in the nature of a cat to go head-to-head with a bear. Or at least it is extremely rare for this to happen.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 28, 2020 15:35:41 GMT -5
It would be horrible for a leopard to take on a sloth bear; sloth bears can and will grow over twice as big as the leopards being sympatric with them and the fight would be ended relatively quickly. A very interesting bout where I could see the leopard winning at times (although not the majority of the time) is against a female Sri Lankan sloth bear as they are roughly the same size.
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Post by brobear on Mar 29, 2020 2:33:00 GMT -5
Tiger: weight - 189 kg ( 417 pounds ) - Grizzly: 264 kg ( 582 pounds ). / 165lbs Sri Lankan sloth bear and a 125lbs Sri Lankan leopard. *I have no idea how one would work out the size ratio between sloth bear and leopard / grizzly and tiger, but they don't appear to be a lot of difference ( to me ). I believe we will find something similar between a Montana black bear and a cougar also. Your thoughts? Edit and add: It's been many decades since I was a school boy, so check my math. I divided 417 into 582 and my conclusion is 1.31. Then I divided 125 into 165 and my conclusion is 1.32. Not a big difference.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Mar 29, 2020 5:58:27 GMT -5
brobearI used the historical Siberian tiger for my calculations (~477lbs), that's why it differs.
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Post by brobear on Mar 29, 2020 6:04:47 GMT -5
brobear I used the historical Siberian tiger for my calculations (~477lbs), that's why it differs. Ahh.. ok. Understood.
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Post by brobear on Apr 20, 2020 7:09:02 GMT -5
Jaguar: Panthera onca Common Name: Jaguar Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata (Vertebrata) Class: Mammalia Order: Carnivora Family: Felidae Genus: Pantherinae Panthera Species: onca Misc: The Jaguar and the Leopard are often confused with one another in zoos. Their coloring and markings are so similar that it is difficult for people to distinguish them. The difference lies in the center of the Jaguars rosettes, because unlike the leopard, the Jaguar has spots inside of its rosettes! The Jag is also a much stockier animal than its cousin, with shorter legs and tail – giving it more of a pit bull type appearance.
Size and Appearance: Jags are the largest felines in the Americas. Adult males can reach an overall length of more than 7 feet, and can weigh anywhere from 150 to 200 pounds. As mentioned above, its coat color and markings are very similar to the leopard, with a rich tawny or yellow background with large black rosettes and spots. It has a larger head, more compact body, and much more powerful paws! The Jaguar also occurs with an all black (melanistic) coat, and like the leopard, the spots can still be seen on black individuals. Albino individuals have been reported as well.
Scientific name: Ursus arctos nelsoni (Clinton Hart Merriam, 1914)
Description: Smaller than the brown bears of the northern USA and Canada. Male bears weighed up to around 315 kgs, with females being smaller. Length was around 180 cms. Colour varied from pale buff-yellow to a grizzled grey or white which would appear silver in bright sunlight, hence the bear’s Mexican name of “el oso plateado” (the silver bear).
Range: The Mexican grizzly bear was found in the northern territories of Mexico, particularly in the northern savannah and mountain forests, and northwards into New Mexico and Arizona in the USA.
Result of your conversion: 315 kilograms is equal to 694.46 pounds (avoirdupois)... *average perhaps between 350 and 400 pounds ( my guess ).
Result of your conversion: 180 centimeters is equal to 70.87 inches ( 5 feet 11 inches ).
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 20, 2020 7:26:27 GMT -5
Honestly, the grizzly bear takes this. The jaguar might have strong skull biting jaws but it’s going to be hard to land a skull bite on an animal thrashing around. The grizzly bear has longer claws, better grappling abilities, and longer and larger claws that can dig deeper.
Even a male American black bear gets my vote at weight parity.
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Post by brobear on Apr 20, 2020 7:38:45 GMT -5
Honestly, the grizzly bear takes this. The jaguar might have strong skull biting jaws but it’s going to be hard to land a skull bite on an animal thrashing around. The grizzly bear has longer claws, better grappling abilities, and longer and larger claws that can dig deeper. Even a male American black bear gets my vote at weight parity. ...and here the grizzly probably has a good 100-pound weight advantage. But, I have to wonder if the jaguar ever preyed upon grizzly she-bears?
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 20, 2020 7:41:50 GMT -5
Siberian tigers occasionally prey on female Ussuri brown bears ( up to the largest female according to Linda Kerley). Therefore, it is possible not to mention, cougars have also killed them (probably females or sub adults) in Great Bear of Almanac.
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