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Post by brobear on Apr 20, 2020 7:48:05 GMT -5
Siberian tigers occasionally prey on female Ussuri brown bears ( up to the largest female according to Linda Kerley). Therefore, it is possible not to mention, cougars have also killed them (probably females or sub adults) in Great Bear of Almanac. All baby or juvenile animals are potential prey for predators; but no cougar has ever killed a full-grown grizzly - ever! But they have, on extremely rare occasion, killed adult black bears. And as we know, a jaguar can and will ambush a black bear.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Apr 20, 2020 14:16:49 GMT -5
Based on the skull measurements of the Mexican grizzly and the fact that it was considered to be smaller than the populations inhabiting Canada and the USA, he would be slightly heavier than the Pantanal jaguar, maybe by ~20-40lbs. It would certainly be one hell of a fight but I would give the edge to the grizzly. Of course everything depends on individuality and an experienced Pantanal male weighing 100kg+ can certainly cause huge trouble to a Mexican grizzly, however, I would personally favour the grizzly bear 6.5/10 times.
I've compared the Mexican grizzly's skull measurements with the skull measurements of a rather small population of Eurasian brown bears inhabiting the Balkan mountains and these brown bears edge out the Mexican grizzly in terms of palatum length and zygomatic width. I highly doubt that the Mexican grizzly reached 350-400lbs on average, my guess would be ~250lbs for an average boar.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Apr 20, 2020 16:30:18 GMT -5
The PC2-Value in the specific study is unrelated to body weight, it's a general value; the brown bear would be superior in this regard.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 20, 2020 16:49:52 GMT -5
The PC2-Value in the specific study is unrelated to body weight, it's a general value; the brown bear would be superior in this regard. You know what, you are right, i got confused with the bite force study which is related to weight. Anyhow, at weight parity i have the Mexican grizzly winning 6/10 times.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 20, 2020 17:32:11 GMT -5
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Post by theundertaker45 on Apr 20, 2020 17:39:04 GMT -5
I can imagine the relationship between Mexican grizzlies and Mexican jaguars back then being equivalent to the relationship between American black bears and cougars nowadays.
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 2:47:27 GMT -5
I have read a slew of books about the historic grizzlies of "the Old West" such as Cowboys, Mountain Men, and Grizzly Bears, The Beast That Walks Like Man, The American Serengeti and numerous others that I can't remember the titles of. These books talked about the big ferocious grizzlies of the prairie and the Sierra Nevada Mountains. The mountain grizzlies were described as being smaller ( which are our Wyoming and Montana grizzlies ). The Mexican was described as not only being smaller but more vegetarian and milder of temper. 'Taker says: I can imagine the relationship between Mexican grizzlies and Mexican jaguars back then being equivalent to the relationship between American black bears and cougars nowadays. *I believe you hit the nail right on the head.
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 2:52:08 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 2:57:40 GMT -5
According to reply #11, the skull of the Mexican grizzly is described as being narrow and wolf-like. I have learned over the years that brown bears from populations which lean more towards a vegetarian diet tend to have shorter muzzles and broader skulls. Those that lean more towards a carnivorous diet tend to have longer narrower skulls ( ex. polar bear ). This tends to counter the vegetarian Mexican grizzly idea.
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 6:56:25 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/topic-mesoamerican-jaguars Mesoamerican Jaguars Quote: While slightly smaller than the more elongated puma, jaguars are fast, low to the ground and powerful predators. In this area, a male might average 130 pounds or so, and it hunts by itself, stalking and ambushing prey." Quote: Jaguar in Guatemala/Mexico/Belize may be among the smallest ones (about 60 kg at max), but they are still the rulers of the Mayan world, the great "Balam". ( 60 kg = 132 pounds ). Quote: FYI, the jaguar is a big male, weighing 120kg. ( = 264.55 pounds ).
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 9:05:59 GMT -5
In today's world, Russia is the only place on earth where two mighty predators of near-same-size ( in terms of head-and-body-length ) share the same habitat. But within my lifetime there was another; northern Mexico and in southern New Mexico, southern Arizona, and in Texas. There was even less size difference in the jaguar and the Mexican grizzly than between the Amur tiger and the Ussuri brown bear. Also, they could have been much easier to study. Too bad. Herein lies another clever future size comparison picture
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Post by tom on Apr 21, 2020 10:22:33 GMT -5
So on average the Mexican Jaguar is larger than the Mountain Lion that now inhabits the Western United States?
We all know the Grizzly (think Yellowstone variety) will displace any Cougar from a kill, would the same be true of a Mexican Grizzly doing the same of a Jaguar kill?
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2020 11:12:09 GMT -5
So on average the Mexican Jaguar is larger than the Mountain Lion that now inhabits the Western United States? We all know the Grizzly (think Yellowstone variety) will displace any Cougar from a kill, would the same be true of a Mexican Grizzly doing the same of a Jaguar kill? IMHO ( H for humble or honest - take your pick ) In Montana, black bears displace cougars from their kills. I see no reason to suspect that the Mexican grizzly would not have treated the jaguar any differently.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 21, 2020 18:04:31 GMT -5
So on average the Mexican Jaguar is larger than the Mountain Lion that now inhabits the Western United States? We all know the Grizzly (think Yellowstone variety) will displace any Cougar from a kill, would the same be true of a Mexican Grizzly doing the same of a Jaguar kill? IMHO ( H for humble or honest - take your pick ) In Montana, black bears displace cougars from their kills. I see no reason to suspect that the Mexican grizzly would not have treated the jaguar any differently. The larger male Mexican grizzly would have stole food from the smaller male jaguar. Female Mexican grizzlies might have avoided them to bring up their cubs safely.
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Post by brobear on Apr 22, 2020 11:27:15 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/954/general-evolution?page=2 www.bigcat.org/all/jaguars The stocky build of the jaguar makes it look larger than it really is. The largest jaguars come from the Pantanal region of Brazil, where males weighing 300 pounds have been documented, but elsewhere the jaguar weighs much less. Males commonly weigh about 121.5 pounds, while females average about 79.5 pounds. The jaguar's head and body length measures 45-72 inches, and the tail length is between 17-30 inches.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 22, 2020 18:58:05 GMT -5
The advantages for the jaguar are of course, speed and agility, but also, a much higher bite force, BFQ: Jaguar - 118.6 at the canine tips, Brown Bear - 99.3 at the canine tips. all the other advantages go for the Mexican grizzly. I still believe its 6/10 in favour of the grizzly at weight parity.
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Post by brobear on Apr 23, 2020 0:59:21 GMT -5
Here at the Domain - Prehistoric & Extinct Bears - Extinct Ursus Bears - Mexican Grizzly - Reply #26 by King Kodiak, one of the last Mexican grizzlies killed in 1976 while feeding on a cougar kill in Sonora, Mexico. Its a big possibility that the bear took that kill by force.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 23, 2020 7:01:06 GMT -5
Here at the Domain - Prehistoric & Extinct Bears - Extinct Ursus Bears - Mexican Grizzly - Reply #26 by King Kodiak, one of the last Mexican grizzlies killed in 1976 while feeding on a cougar kill in Sonora, Mexico. Its a big possibility that the bear took that kill by force. Most likely yes. Bears are not known as the "premier kleptoparasites" for nothing.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 3, 2020 12:54:52 GMT -5
JAGUAR "EL JEFE" KILLS YOUNG ADULT FEMALE BLACK BEAR ESTIMATED AT 230 LBS BY AMBUSH.
from the link below: a most likely scenario:
"He puts the scat and the skull into zip-lock bags and outlines a likely scenario. “A young adult bear is foraging around, El Jefe explodes from ambush, knocks him on his ass, crushes his skull, and then feeds on him. But we need to test the scat. It could be mountain lion. Those hairs might not be bear.”www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/return-great-american-jaguar-180960443/
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 3, 2020 19:31:06 GMT -5
I am sure a jaguar can kill a female American black bear and even a male blackie at weight parity by ambush. Most female American black bears still outweigh the pumas and that is what the jaguar would prefer to target.
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