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Post by brobear on Aug 7, 2022 19:09:43 GMT -5
/\ It won’t be easy to pierce the skull of an opponent which is fighting back and not running. Smilodon could not use those long flattened canines during a struggle or while an animal is running. His prey or opponent must be securely pinned and held still - immobilized. A heavy struggling animal weighing several hundred pounds or more could easily break one or both of those long teeth. A large male bear could not easily be subdued and held still.
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Post by brobear on Sept 20, 2022 18:13:28 GMT -5
Smilodon going face-to-face against Arctodus... very unlikely.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 23, 2022 6:51:33 GMT -5
/\ Even a male kodiak and polar bear are too much for the largest smilodon populator. Therefore, I agree.
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Post by brobear on Dec 9, 2022 4:42:11 GMT -5
Smilodon's sabre teeth Date: December 8, 2022 Source: University of Liege www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/12/221208114733.htm A team of researchers led by Narimane Chatar, a doctoral student at the EDDyLab of the University of Liège (Belgium), has tested the biting efficiency of Smilodon, an extinct species of carnivore close to the extant felines. Using high-precision 3D scans and simulation methods, the team has just revealed how these animals managed to bite despite the impressive length of their teeth. Ancient carnivorous mammals developed a wide range of skull and tooth shapes throughout their evolution. However, few of these evolutions have yet matched those of the iconic sabre-toothed felid Smilodon. Other groups of mammals, such as the now extinct nimravids, have also evolved a similar morphology, with species having sabre teeth but also much shorter canines, similar to those of the lions, tigers, caracals, domestic cats, etc. that we know today. This phenomenon of similar morphologies appearing in different groups of organisms is known as convergent evolution; felids and nimravids being an amazing example of convergence. As there are no modern equivalents of animals with such sabre-shaped teeth, the hunting method of Smilodon and similar species has remained obscure and hotly debated. It was first suggested that all sabre-toothed species hunted in the same way, regardless of the length of their canines, a hypothesis that is now controversial. So the question remained ... how did this variety of 'sabre-toothed cat' hunt? The enormous canines of the extinct sabre-toothed cat Smilodon imply that this animal had to open its jaw extremely wide, 110° according to some authors, in order to use them effectively," explains Prof. Valentin Fischer, director of the EDDyLab at ULiège. However, the mechanical feasibility and efficiency of Smilodon and its relatives to bite at such a large angle is unknown, leaving a gap in our understanding of this very fundamental question about sabre-toothed predators." Using high-precision 3D scanners and analytical methods derived from engineering, an international team of Belgian and North American scientists has just revealed how these animals probably used their impressive weapons. Narimane Chatar, a PhD student at the EDDyLab of the University of Liege and lead author of the study, collected a large amount of three-dimensional data. She first scanned and modelled the skulls, mandibles and muscles of numerous extinct and extant species of felids and nimravids. "Each species was analysed in several scenarios: a bite was simulated on each tooth at three different biting angles: 30°, as commonly seen in extant felids, but also larger angles (60° and 90°). In total, we carried out 1,074 bite simulations to cover all the possibilities," explains Narimane Chatar. To do this, the young researcher used the finite element method. This is an exciting application of the finite element approach, which allows palaeontologists to modify and computationally simulate different bite angles and to subject skull models to virtual stresses without damaging the precious fossil specimens," says Prof. Jack Tseng, Professor and Curator of Palaeontology at the University of California, Berkeley, and co-author of the study. Our comprehensive analyses provide the most detailed insight to date into the diversity and nuances of sabre tooth bite mechanics." One of the results obtained by the team is the understanding of the distribution of stress (pressure) on the mandible during biting. This stress shows a continuum across the animals analysed, with the highest values measured in species with the shortest upper canines and the lowest stress values measured in the most extreme sabre-toothed species. The researchers also noted that stress decreased with increasing bite angle, but only in sabre-toothed species. However, the way in which these animals transmitted force to the bite point and the deformation of the mandible resulting from the bite were remarkably similar across the dataset, indicating comparable effectiveness regardless of canine length. "The results show both the possibilities and the limits of evolution; animals facing similar problems in their respective ecosystems often end up looking alike through convergent evolution. However, Narimane Chatar's results also show that there can be several ways to be an effective killer, whether you are sabre-toothed or not," concludes Valentin Fischer. This phenomenon, called 'many-to-one' systems, means that distinct morphologies can result in a similar function, such as the fact that bears and cats are both efficient fishers. This multiplicity of morphologies indicates that there is no single optimal form of sabre-toothed predator.
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bolushi
Parictis
Outstanding Bear
Posts: 14
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Post by bolushi on Dec 10, 2022 0:54:58 GMT -5
I think Smilodon is hyped up for the wrong reasons, considering the above and everything else I've seen. Everyone starts thinking about how they could use their saber teeth to kill another predator when they actually evolved extremely robust forelimbs so they could grapple down prey to use their highly specialized killing bite. It can't be used on the fly at all. Their forelimbs are something to get excited about, not their saber teeth.
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Post by brobear on Dec 10, 2022 2:10:24 GMT -5
At HB length-parity, Smilodon would have superior pulling power in his arms and shoulders, while a brown bear would have superior pushing power. As tigerluver shows on reply #24, the brown bear is stronger in over-all physical strength.
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Post by brobear on Jan 22, 2023 14:58:12 GMT -5
Saber-Toothed Tigers Had Unique Growth Strategy among Big Cats www.sci.news/paleontology/smilodon-fatalis-unique-growth-strategy-09230.html Paleontologists from the Royal Ontario Museum and the University of Toronto have found and examined the fossilized remains of two subadult and one adult saber-toothed tigers (Smilodon fatalis) — likely a mother and two adolescents — in the Pleistocene coastal deposits in Ecuador. Their results show that saber-toothed tigers had a unique growth strategy that combined a growth rate that is similar to a tiger and the extended growth period of a lion.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 19, 2023 6:32:18 GMT -5
Male Kodiak bears and Peninsula Alaskan brown bears also have their exceptionally large specimens which sadly become targets for poachers.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 19, 2023 6:40:05 GMT -5
I think the male polar bear will beat even the male Pleistocene Borneon tiger, Ngadong tiger, Wahnsien tiger, smilodon populator at average, maximum, and exceptionally heavy weights.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 19, 2023 6:43:42 GMT -5
Before I forget, we have an acccount of an exceptionally large female grizzly named BloodyPaws without a womb. She weighs about 1000 pounds.
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2023 7:11:29 GMT -5
I think the male polar bear will beat even the male Pleistocene Borneon tiger, Ngadong tiger, Wahnsien tiger, smilodon populator at average, maximum, and exceptionally heavy weights. I agree.
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Post by Ransik on Sept 19, 2023 7:27:33 GMT -5
The weapon the polar bear has is it's immensely powerful swipe, which could kill a big cat. There's also the account of Velox The Polar bear that killed two lions at Denver Zoo. A big male polar bear from the foxe basin is probably too much for big cats even if it's a saber-toothed cat. The average polar bear is still bigger than the biggest ancient big cats.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 19, 2023 14:33:09 GMT -5
The male polar bear beats all extinct big cats in my opinion.
A male Ussuri brown bear overlaps in weight with the smilodon populator so it might be a good match.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 19, 2023 20:21:46 GMT -5
brobear , which bear would be a good matchup for the Pleistocene Borneon tiger?
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2023 21:30:12 GMT -5
brobear , which bear would be a good matchup for the Pleistocene Borneon tiger? According to the experts, there was probably no such tiger.
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Post by brobear on Sept 19, 2023 22:41:06 GMT -5
There are three major subspecies of Smilodon: -Smilodon populator: max. size of 230cm in length, 120cm at the shoulders and a weight of 400-450kg, -Smilodon fatalis: max. size of 220cm in length, 110cm at the shoulders and a weight of 250kg-Smilodon gracilis : max size of 200cm in length, 75cm at the shoulders and a weight of 150kg
I would personally divide it into groups to make some interesting matchups:
-Smilodon populator: best matchups would be an Alaskan coastal grizzly bear, Kamchatka brown bear, Kodiak bear and a polar bear. -Smilodon fatalis: best matchups would be an East Siberian brown bear, Eurasian brown bear, inland grizzly bear and an Ussuri brown bear. -Smilodon gracilis: best matchups would be an American black bear, Asian black bear, giant panda, sloth bear and a spectacled bear.
The sun bear just is a viable prey option for the much larger and therefore stronger felids imo.
I agree 100% with all said here.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 19, 2023 23:59:43 GMT -5
Even an average male polar bear from Svalbard is 220 pounds heavier than a smilodon populator on average.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 20, 2023 0:00:13 GMT -5
I will give more feedback later.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2023 3:29:24 GMT -5
Smilodon populator, probably the biggest cat ever, vs the modern polar bear. First of all, the saber-toothed cat would be desperately hungry and out of options to ambush a bear bigger than himself. Smilodon will have multiple problems here. In the virgin-white terrain, the big cat will not be able to complete an attempted ambush. This fight will be face-to-face - something no cat relishes. Smilodon kills with a single slicing bite. severing the juggler. But, to accomplish this, he must first throw the polar bear down and subdue him - meaning to hold him steady so as there is very little struggling. The big cat cannot use those long knife-like canines on a heavy struggling animal, else he will break one or possibly both of his prized weaponry. During the fight, those long wicked-looking teeth are useless. Meanwhile, the huge bear is fighting with teeth and claws. In just a short few minutes, the bear will have crushed the mighty saber-toothed cat. _____________________________ *There is a singular case of two Smilodon fossil remains discovered, showing that one Smilodon (probably) killed the other with a bite to the skull. There has been no other animal skulls found, previous or after, of any species, with Smilodon teeth wounds to the skull. This is (imo) evidence that (if) this one Smilodon was killed by a skull-bite from a rival male, it was a fluke. The big cat probably bit into the other's skull in pure desperation. picture by theundertaker45
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Post by brobear on Nov 16, 2023 0:13:51 GMT -5
SABER-TOOTHED TIGER VS AMERICAN LION -So, why should I post this cat-fight here? Because it says exactly what I was saying in the above post
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