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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 23, 2021 20:11:17 GMT -5
/\ Good point. Heavier bears like kodiak and polar bears which are larger and stronger than smilodon populators will be unable to kill these huge animals (glyptodon, elephant size ground sloth, and mammoths). Therefore, I doubt a smilodon can take on these creatures.
However, the smilodon lives in small prides and might be able to distract a glyptodon to wear it out before one delivers a skull stab. Still that is a dangerous stun to pull.
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Post by brobear on Sept 24, 2021 0:47:27 GMT -5
/\ Good point. Heavier bears like kodiak and polar bears which are larger and stronger than smilodon populators will be unable to kill these huge animals (glyptodon, elephant size ground sloth, and mammoths). Therefore, I doubt a smilodon can take on these creatures. However, the smilodon lives in small prides and might be able to distract a glyptodon to wear it out before one delivers a skull stab. Still that is a dangerous stun to pull. No bear is going to attack a giant ground sloth nor a mastodon or mammoth. A huge bear and a Glyptodon is something to ponder. As for Smilodon and Glyptodon, I wouldn't think so. Those teeth are designed to slice through soft flesh.
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Post by brobear on Sept 24, 2021 0:52:38 GMT -5
From Christiansen and Harris (2005) and Campione and Evans (2012) we can show a comparison.
Campione and Evans (2012) report a bear humerus 400.5 mm long and 146.25 mm in circumference (robusticity index 0.365). The closest in length humerus reported by Christiansen and Harris (2005) is 387.5 mm long and 155 mm in circumference (robusticity index 0.4). So from this small sample size, Smilodon populator is more robust in the humerus. In the femur, the bear femur was 445.5 mm long and 126.25 mm in circumference (index 0.28). The longest S. populator femur in Christiansen and Harris (2005) was 390.4 mm long and 113.5 mm in circumference (index 0.29). S. populator was front heavy while bears are more balanced so that skews the comparison somewhat. Nonetheless it appears S. populator bone-wise is more robust. Let's us take a look about the comparison of the entire skeleton. IMO, S. populator could have slightly upper hand in term of the limb bones. However, the torso domain would still go to the Brown bear. As anatomically, the bear got quite different body structure from feline as a plantigrade animal, it has more centered toward the leverage of the torso.
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Post by brobear on Sept 24, 2021 1:06:17 GMT -5
Shoulder Hump**** This section will be given to the brown bear amongst ursines soley. We'll start out with a quote from the Great Bear Almanac, by Gary Brown on page 77- Brown bears have a hump between their shoulders that is covered with long hairs and is normally a reliable means of species identification. The long hair often accentuates the hump when "the hackles" are raised. This distinguishing feature is a distinctive mass of muscle that provides the brown bears with their digging ability and the powerful striking force of the forepaws. Once again, another part of brown bear anatomy (although other bears have similar features which shows why they can accomplish similar feats) which allows for tremendous striking force of the paws. However, this extra muscle also allows extra strength, as have other features such as the shortened back, greater amount of muscle in the limbs of bears, and leverage advantage in paw striking. Other ursines such as the black bear and polar bear, have this feature abridged, and felines lack it entirely. How large can the shoulder hump get however? Let's find out how high first, this source mentions how the bear's height is measured and than gives it (http://internationalhunte.../InteriorBearAnatomy.html)- The brown bear is 3-5 feet, from the bottom of the paw to the highest point at the shoulder. We can subtract this height from the limb length of Ursus arctos in the chart shown in section 1.0 to find the height of the shoulder hump. Ursus arctos's forelimb length is 2.857, subtracting this from three and five feet gives us a range of .143-2.143 feet. I would assume that only the largest bears would of roughly half a ton in weight would have a shoulder hump of two feet, whereas only the smallest would be within the range of .143 of a foot. However, since maximums and minimals don't particularly show averages, we will search for the average height of the grizzly, this source (http://www.bearinfosite.com/brown_grizzly_bear.htm ) gives an average- The adult bear is generally 3 1/2 feet tall when on all fours. From our topic: Strength and Leverage.
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Post by brobear on Sept 24, 2021 1:09:20 GMT -5
Continued.... Now, to minus the limb length, 3.5-2.857=0.643. This should mean that the brown bear's shoulder hump is about 6 inches tall, at average (or at least, when the hump is erect, which it will be in some phases of running or digging.) Now, to find out how wide. While I don't have any evidence of this, pictures seem to clearly show a brown bear's shoulder hump is noticeably wider than it is high. So when we calculate how wide the shoulder hump of a brown bear is, we will use the term "at least wider than", since the shoulder hump of a brown bear is wider than it is tall. Now than, we know the shoulder hump of an average brown bear is at least wider than six inches, but what is the actual circumference of the hump? Having a hump at least wider than six inches, we can use pi to find out (note that we will use pi to the hundred-millionth unit.) 6*pi=18.84955592153876. However, since the shoulder hump is only half a circle, due to meeting with the back before completion, we must divide this by two- 18.84955592153876/2=9.42477796. So we now know that the shoulder hump of an average brown bear should at least have a circumference greater than 9.42477796 inches. Now, another question must be asked, what is the area of a an average brown bear's shoulder hump? We can find this by multiplying pi by the radius squared. So, pi*3^2= 28.27433385. However, since once more the shoulder hump of a brown bear is only half a circle we must once more, divide by two, so 28.27433385/2=14.137166925. Now the important phase, I would like to find out the weight of a brown bear's shoulder hump. The area of an average brown bear's shoulder hump is greater than 14.137166925 inches, or 1.17809724375 feet. How much area will this many feet of a brown bear weight. We will be using the grizzly bear in this scenario, since brown bear size is extremely fluctuating. This source (http://www.defenders.org/...wildlife/grizzly_bear.php ) says the average grizzly is 6-7 in length, and gives a median of 575 pounds. Now, to give an approximation of the weight of a grizzly bear's shoulder hump, we will divide the average weight of the bear by its average length. We aren't done yet however, we must also take into account a bear's fore- and hind limbs, as these make up some of the bear's weight as well, rather than just the torso. To account for the bear's hind and forelimbs, we will multiply the forelimb length and hind limb lengths given by the chart in the "Neuromuscular evolution" thread by two, and add them together, than add them to the bear's torso length. 2.857*2= 5.714, 2.802*2= 5.604, 5.714+5.604= 11.318. So, now we will add this length to the range of the bear's torso length, 11.318+6= 17.318, 11.318+7= 18.318. Now, we will divide the bear's weight by this length to find out how much weight a bear gains when it gains a foot in length, 575/17.318= 33.20244839667398082919505716595, 575/18= 31.944444444444443. So, every other foot added onto a bear should give it a gain of 33.20244839667398082919505716595-31.944444444444443 pounds. Now, to find our estimation for the shoulder hump weight we can stimply add on 17.809724375% of the weight our ranges gave us for per square foot of a grizzly bear. So, 33.20244839667398082919505716595+17.067652520105092%= 38.8693269, and 31.944444444444443 +17.067652520105092%= 37.3966112. However, it should be noted since seven feet was the upper weight range in length for a bear, we're likely talking about a bear closer to 625 pounds with the shoulder hump weight estimate, and since the shoulder hump of a bear lacks bones, in order to optimize muscle attachment, the overall weight will also likely (although not necessarily so, because bears for the most part, have all muscle in their shoulder hump, whereas the hips of a bear will show less weight per square foot due to the fact that's where the fat of a ursine is, and fat weighs less than muscle) be on the lower end of the estimation. Now, we can make a chart listing the statistics of a brown bear's shoulder hump. The Shoulder hump reinforces the brown bear's upper-body strength.
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Post by brobear on Sept 24, 2021 1:11:54 GMT -5
Continued.... Shoulder hump Height- six inches. Width- greater than six inches. Circumference- greater than 9.42477796 inches. Area- greater than 14.137166925 inches. Estimated weight (roughly)- 38.8693269-37.3966112 pounds. Percentage of body weight estimation- 6.759882939130435-6.503758469565218% To sum up the shoulder hump section, we can conclude the extra hump of muscle a brown bear will have will have a noticeable effect on the conclusion, as seemingly 36 pounds of muscle will be gained in this area; this would mean a feline's muscles would need to be much more powerful than those of a bear to ditigate the effect of an extra 30+ pounds of muscle; something which is highly unlikely. The shoulder hump of muscle evolved from a million years of digging, often in hard ground riddled with rocks and tough roots.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 1, 2021 10:00:20 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 1, 2021 11:09:50 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Oct 2, 2021 2:52:14 GMT -5
Reply #366 - The lady ( biologist? ) suggests that if the saber-toothed cats had not went extinct, there long canines would have evolved into shorter, more tiger-like teeth. She spoke as if Smilodon was always hindered by his knife-like canines and therefore had trouble hunting. *Actually, those sabers were very effective killing tools. ( IMO ) his teeth were not suited for small prey ( rabbits and rodents ) nor huge prey such as giant sloths or mastodons. After the ambush ( to catch the prey ) Smilodon had to wrestle his prey ( like a bear ), hold it down, immobilize it, and then kill it with a quick slice of the throat. ( IMO ), Smilodon probably sought out prey animals in the size range of modern horses and bison cows. He was an accomplished predator.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 2, 2021 3:19:56 GMT -5
Tigers and lions actually are more suited to upclose brawling compared to smilodons.
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Post by brobear on Oct 11, 2021 14:32:45 GMT -5
Recreations of the animals are by "SameerPrehistorica" from DeviantArt.
This picture clearly demonstrates that the biggest of the biggest cats are absolutely dwarfed by the biggest of the biggest bears.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 11, 2021 22:11:29 GMT -5
/\ The only extant bears which dwaft the biggest cats are the polar bear and larger brown bear subspecies.
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Post by brobear on Oct 12, 2021 1:53:41 GMT -5
/\ The only extant bears which dwaft the biggest cats are the polar bear and larger brown bear subspecies. These would include the European brown bear, Hokkaido brown bear, Ussuri brown bear, Kamchatka brown bear, Alaskan peninsula brown bear, Kodiak bear and the polar bear. The grizzly is also some larger than lions and tigers. ( only those brown bears living in remote barren locations with poor food availability are smaller )
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Post by brobear on Oct 16, 2021 4:23:56 GMT -5
Reply #366 - The lady ( biologist? ) suggests that if the saber-toothed cats had not went extinct, there long canines would have evolved into shorter, more tiger-like teeth. She spoke as if Smilodon was always hindered by his knife-like canines and therefore had trouble hunting. *Actually, those sabers were very effective killing tools. ( IMO ) his teeth were not suited for small prey ( rabbits and rodents ) nor huge prey such as giant sloths or mastodons. After the ambush ( to catch the prey ) Smilodon had to wrestle his prey ( like a bear ), hold it down, immobilize it, and then kill it with a quick slice of the throat. ( IMO ), Smilodon probably sought out prey animals in the size range of modern horses and bison cows. He was an accomplished predator. *Smilodon populator bringing down a *Machrauchenia Artwork by by Fernando G. Baptista / Senior Graphics Editor - National Geographic Magazine.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 16, 2021 4:43:58 GMT -5
That is what the smilodon would probably do. While it can kill with a skull bite, it is less risky to the canines byy slashing the throat of struggling prey.
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Post by brobear on Oct 16, 2021 5:05:05 GMT -5
That is what the smilodon would probably do. While it can kill with a skull bite, it is less risky to the canines byy slashing the throat of struggling prey. There was a single Smilodon skull found which had a hole in it which was probably made by a long canine tooth from another Smilodon. This "skull bite" was probably produced in the heat of battle; an act of desperation. I feel certain that when Smilodon hunted, he was an ambush predator who habitually killed by slicing the throat of his prey.
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Post by brobear on Oct 22, 2021 4:23:38 GMT -5
Some good information here: handwiki.org/wiki/Biology:Smilodon Smilodon is a genus of the extinct machairodont subfamily of the felids. It is one of the most famous prehistoric mammals and the best known saber-toothed cat. Although commonly known as the saber-toothed tiger, it was not closely related to the tiger or other modern cats. Smilodon lived in the Americas during the Pleistocene epoch (2.5 mya – 10,000 years ago). The genus was named in 1842 based on fossils from Brazil; the generic name means "scalpel" or "two-edged knife" combined with "tooth". Three species are recognized today: S. gracilis, S. fatalis, and S. populator. The two latter species were probably descended from S. gracilis, which itself probably evolved from Megantereon. The hundreds of individuals obtained from the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles constitute the largest collection of Smilodon fossils. Overall, Smilodon was more robustly built than any extant cat, with particularly well-developed forelimbs and exceptionally long upper canine teeth. Its jaw had a bigger gape than that of modern cats, and its upper canines were slender and fragile, being adapted for precision killing. S. gracilis was the smallest species at 55 to 100 kg (120 to 220 lb) in weight. S. fatalis had a weight of 160 to 280 kg (350 to 620 lb) and height of 100 cm (39 in). Both of these species are mainly known from North America, but remains from South America have also been attributed to them. S. populator from South America was the largest species, at 220 to 436 kg (485 to 961 lb) in weight and 120 cm (47 in) in height, and was among the largest known felids. The coat pattern of Smilodon is unknown, but it has been artistically restored with plain or spotted patterns. In North America, Smilodon hunted large herbivores such as bison and camels, and it remained successful even when encountering new prey species in South America. Smilodon is thought to have killed its prey by holding it still with its forelimbs and biting it, but it is unclear in what manner the bite itself was delivered. Scientists debate whether Smilodon had a social or a solitary lifestyle; analysis of modern predator behavior as well as of Smilodon's fossil remains could be construed to lend support to either view. Smilodon probably lived in closed habitats such as forests and bush, which would have provided cover for ambushing prey. Smilodon died out at the same time that most North and South American megafauna disappeared, about 10,000 years ago. Its reliance on large animals has been proposed as the cause of its extinction, along with climate change and competition with other species, but the exact cause is unknown.
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Post by brobear on Oct 22, 2021 4:29:09 GMT -5
In Reply #358, OldGreenGrolar brought-up the subject of Glyptodon. handwiki.org/wiki/Biology:Smilodon In rare cases, Smilodon may have also targeted glyptodonts, based on a Glyptotherium skull that bears elliptical puncture marks consistent with the size and diameter of its canine teeth. This was a juvenile glyptodont with an incompletely developed cephalic shield (head armor).
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Post by brobear on Oct 22, 2021 4:36:03 GMT -5
handwiki.org/wiki/Biology:Smilodon S. gracilis was the smallest species, estimated at 55 to 100 kg (120 to 220 lb) in weight, about the size of a jaguar. It was similar to its predecessor Megantereon of the same size, but its dentition and skull were more advanced, approaching S. fatalis. S. fatalis was intermediate in size between S. gracilis and S. populator. It ranged from 160 to 280 kg (350 to 620 lb). and reached a shoulder height of 100 cm (39 in) and body length of 175 cm (69 in). It was similar to a lion in dimensions, but was more robust and muscular, and therefore had a larger body mass. Its skull was also similar to that of Megantereon, though more massive and with larger canines S. populator was among the largest known felids, with a body mass range of 220 to 400 kg (490 to 880 lb), and one estimate suggesting up to 470 kg (1,040 lb). A particularly large S. populator skull from Uruguay measuring 39 cm (15 in) in length indicates this individual may have weighed as much as 436 kg (961 lb). It stood at a shoulder height of 120 cm (47 in). Compared to S. fatalis, S. populator was more robust and had a more elongated and narrow skull with a straighter upper profile, higher positioned nasal bones, a more vertical occiput, more massive metapodials and slightly longer forelimbs relative to hindlimbs. Large tracks from Argentina (for which the ichnotaxon name Smilodonichium has been proposed) have been attributed to S. populator, and measure 17.6 cm (6.9 in) by 19.2 cm (7.6 in). This is larger than tracks of the Bengal tiger, to which the footprints have been compared.
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Post by brobear on Oct 22, 2021 17:06:14 GMT -5
Quote from above: A particularly large S. populator skull from Uruguay measuring 39 cm (15 in) in length indicates this individual may have weighed as much as 436 kg (961 lb). It stood at a shoulder height of 120 cm (47 in). Shoulder height - 3 feet 11 inches. Weight - 961 pounds. Average Ussuri brown bear: Head-and-body length - 6 feet 5 inches. ( max 8 feet 3 inches ). Shoulder height - 3 feet 9.24 inches. ( max 4 feet 2 inches ). Weight - 582.02 pounds. ( max 707.68 pounds ). Too bad we don't have a head-and-body length of this saber-toothed cat.
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