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Post by brobear on Oct 31, 2021 10:27:59 GMT -5
Abstract: Among the three recognized species of Smilodon, S. populator is the largest in size and has the widest distribution across South America. The present contribution describes an almost complete skull assigned to the aforementioned felid. The material was recovered from sediments of the Dolores Formation (Lujanian Stage/Age) from the southern part of Uruguay. This specimen is remarkable for its unusual craniodental measurements, indicating that it is one of the largest known specimens of the genus. Estimates of body mass indicate that this individual weighed over 400 kg. In addition, maximum prey size estimation greatly surpasses 1 t and approach nearly 3 t. Based on this, aspects of the paleobiology and paleoecology of S. populator are discussed. Undoubtedly, this kind of carnivorous mammal was at the top of the food chain, with clear adaptations for feeding upon the largest available herbivores, which potentially includes several megafaunal mammal species found in South America during the late Pleistocene.
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Post by brobear on Nov 3, 2021 11:19:30 GMT -5
*Something that comes to mind when discussing any bear vs big cat topic; the big cat fans will often say that bears are poor at killing ability. This might be true, but not a confirmed fact. *Explanation: after a brown bear mauls a man or a beast, when he walks away, he has no concern whether his adversary is breathing or not. As long as his victim is no longer a threat or a bother, the bear just don't care. Men have often been known to survive bear attacks ( with medical treatment ). But, a big cat, left behind with multiple bleeding wounds and broken bones, after a bear mauling, will not be left with a long bright future ahead of him. *The bear's killing ability is null. *The Smilodon's inability to make use of his pair of deadly killing tools, during the struggle, still stands. The great saber-toothed cat must completely immobilize his opponent before slicing his throat. This is highly unlikely against an adversary who equals, if not overshadows, the great saber-toothed cats great strength. Meanwhile, during the struggle, the bear is making use of every weapon at his disposal - both teeth and claws. Even though Smilodon is far stronger than any Pantherine ever, at equal HB length, the brown bear ( or cave bear ) is heavier and probably stronger. *Note: Smilodon is the big cat enthusiast's last "Great Felidae Hope" against the brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Mar 6, 2022 18:26:42 GMT -5
The Question was asked of tigerluver ( biologist )... how much did an average Smilodon populator weigh? A- 250 kg to 300 kg for males, depending on the climate at that point is probably fair. ( 550 to 660 pounds ) ... at weight-parity with an Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Mar 6, 2022 19:44:11 GMT -5
/\ An exceptionally large male Ussuri brown bear at 1000 to 1320 pounds will be the winner.
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Post by brobear on Mar 7, 2022 5:00:07 GMT -5
/\ An exceptionally large male Ussuri brown bear at 1000 to 1320 pounds will be the winner. Average male S. populator vs average male Ussuri brown bear - I would wager on the bear. Max male S. populator vs max male Ussuri brown bear - I would wager on the bear.
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Post by yz on May 15, 2022 9:56:20 GMT -5
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Post by Montezuma on May 16, 2022 7:29:22 GMT -5
/\ So smilidon is stronger than anyother cat. Good info.
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Post by yz on May 16, 2022 8:07:03 GMT -5
/\ So smilidon is stronger than anyother cat. Good info. Ty
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Post by brobear on May 27, 2022 23:39:06 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see a thorough morphology comparison between Smilodon populator and Ursus arctos at HB length parity.
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 28, 2022 3:57:33 GMT -5
This is the latest reconstruction of Smilodon populator conducted by "randomdinos" on DeviantArt; it depicts the largest specimen found so far (Uruguay) and shows a shoulder height of 132cm and HBL of 205cm (straight line) with added flesh. As a weight range he gives 379-436kg for this specimen based on the latest scientific papers on it; therefore I'll take the median of that (~408kg) to draw a rough comparison with Ursus arctos and Ursus maritimus.
Smilodon Populator (biggest individual from Uruguay): 408/2.05³ -> 47.36 Ursus arctos (Yellowstone): 203/1.67³ -> 43.59 Ursus maritimus (Foxe Basin): 579/2.37³ -> 43.50
So as visible here, this prehistoric cat was in fact heavier per body length than modern bears (average specimens). However, we are talking about a specific individual here which probably is the most impressive cat of all time, I am sure that there are exceptional bears out there who exceed the average BMI for bears by quite a bit also. Blanchard had one male grizzly in his study (that male was 22 years old) who measured 165cm and weighed 238kg which would result in a score of 52.98.
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Post by brobear on Jun 7, 2022 3:06:34 GMT -5
Smilodon, the saber-toothed “tiger” ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/carnivora/sabretooth.html The "saber-toothed tiger," Smilodon, is the California State Fossil and the second most common fossil mammal found in the La Brea tar pits. The name "saber-toothed tiger" is misleading as these animals are not closely related to tigers. Juvenile to adult-sized fossils are represented in the large Berkeley collections. The first Chairman of the University of California Department of Paleontology, Professor John C. Merriam, and his student Chester Stock, monographed the morphology of this great carnivore in 1932. Since then, hundreds of thousands of Smilodon bones have been found at La Brea. These finds have permitted remarkably detailed reconstructions of how Smilodon lived. We now know Smilodon was about a foot shorter than living lions but was nearly twice as heavy. Also, unlike cheetahs and lions (which have long tails that help provide balance when the animals run) Smilodon had a bobtail. These suggest that Smilodon did not chase down prey animals over long distances as lions, leopards, and cheetahs do. Instead, it probably charged from ambush, waiting for its prey to come close before attacking. Smilodon is a relatively recent sabertooth, from the Late Pleistocene. It went extinct about 10,000 years ago. Fossils have been found all over North America and Europe. Smilodon fossils from the La Brea tar pits include bones that show evidence of serious crushing or fracture injuries, or crippling arthritis and other degenerative diseases. Such problems would have been debilitating for the wounded animals. Yet many of these bones show extensive healing and regrowth indicating that even crippled animals survived for some time after their injuries. How did they survive? It seems most likely that they were cared for, or at least allowed to feed, by other saber-toothed cats. Solitary hunters with crippling injuries would not be expected to live long enough for the bones to heal. Smilodon appears to have lived in packs and had a social structure like modern lions. They were unlike tigers and all other living cats, which are solitary hunters. Occasional finds of sabertooth-sized holes in Smilodon bones suggest the social life of Smilodon was not always peaceful. The cats may have fought over food or mates as lions do today. Such fights were probably accompanied by loud roaring. From the structure of the hyoid bones in the throat of Smilodon, we know it could roar.
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Post by brobear on Jun 7, 2022 3:22:43 GMT -5
Megantereon, Smilodon gracilis, Smilodon fatalis, and Smilodon populator were all separate species just as the Ursinae ( Ursus ) bears are divided into separate species. The only two species that the grizzly ever came into contact with were the smaller light-weight S. gracilis and S. fatalis. Smilodon fatalis could have been a problem for the Pleistocene grizzly ( which might have averaged roughly 700 pounds ) only because they were probably group hunters. Smilodon populator, although he never met Ursus arctos, would be the brown bear's biggest and possibly his only ( cat ) real challenge in a one-on-one ( imagined ) face-off.
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Post by brobear on Jun 9, 2022 3:44:27 GMT -5
Smilodon populator, possibly the biggest cat of all time, was roughly within the same weight range as the Ussuri brown bear. He lived in South America; therefore the Pleistocene grizzly never came into contact with him. However, the Pleistocene grizzly did live where Smilodon fatalis hunted. The grizzly probably had, on average, roughly a 100-pound weight advantage over the saber-toothed cat.
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horribilis
Sun Bear
“You have no idea how powerful the truth can be.” - Oliver Queen
Posts: 47
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Post by horribilis on Jun 10, 2022 4:19:23 GMT -5
Megantereon, Smilodon gracilis, Smilodon fatalis, and Smilodon populator were all separate species just as the Ursinae ( Ursus ) bears are divided into separate species. The only two species that the grizzly ever came into contact with were the smaller light-weight S. gracilis and S. fatalis. Smilodon fatalis could have been a problem for the Pleistocene grizzly ( which might have averaged roughly 700 pounds ) only because they were probably group hunters. Smilodon populator, although he never met Ursus arctos, would be the brown bear's biggest and possibly his only ( cat ) real challenge in a one-on-one ( imagined ) face-off. If both the beasts are average sized and are matched up in a fair field , I'm putting my money on the coastal grizzly here. Its much bigger tbh . Moreover the average weight estimates from studies put it around 300 kg for populator . But these studies allometrically scale limb bones and it might not correlate as strongly as one would expect considering much of the mass is accumulated in torso. In populator , the limb bones are wide but their torso wasn't that wide.
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Post by brobear on Jun 14, 2022 11:26:18 GMT -5
Let's consider a fair fight which ( IMO ) would be any big cat or saber-toothed cat, including the Nimravidae or Barbourofelids, at equal HB length. I would dare to say that a full-grown male brown bear will outweigh any cat or near-cat relative at HB length parity and the brown bear will prove to be stronger and more durable. I would wager on the brown bear against any such adversary.
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2022 2:34:52 GMT -5
Megantereon, Smilodon gracilis, Smilodon fatalis, and Smilodon populator were all separate species just as the Ursinae ( Ursus ) bears are divided into separate species. The only two species that the grizzly ever came into contact with were the smaller light-weight S. gracilis and S. fatalis. Smilodon fatalis could have been a problem for the Pleistocene grizzly ( which might have averaged roughly 700 pounds ) only because they were probably group hunters. Smilodon populator, although he never met Ursus arctos, would be the brown bear's biggest and possibly his only ( cat ) real challenge in a one-on-one ( imagined ) face-off. If both the beasts are average sized and are matched up in a fair field , I'm putting my money on the coastal grizzly here. Its much bigger tbh . Moreover the average weight estimates from studies put it around 300 kg for populator . But these studies allometrically scale limb bones and it might not correlate as strongly as one would expect considering much of the mass is accumulated in torso. In populator , the limb bones are wide but their torso wasn't that wide. I consider HB length as the only fair and honest method of comparing any two quadruped animals. This way, that which is the more robust can often become crystal clear. At equal HB length, a brown bear would outweigh any big cat including Smilodon populator. If you look closely at the picture above, they are very near HB length parity. Also, a typical Amur tiger is very near HB length parity with the Ussuri brown bear, which normally has a weight advantage of roughly 200-pounds.
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horribilis
Sun Bear
“You have no idea how powerful the truth can be.” - Oliver Queen
Posts: 47
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Post by horribilis on Jun 16, 2022 3:01:23 GMT -5
brobear I concur. Funny that even the mightiest of felines ( Sabretooth cat) gets outweighed by the bruin at equal HBL and then we've got fanatics like Ross Wind claiming lions are the most heavily built land carnivore.
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Post by brobear on Jun 16, 2022 3:47:15 GMT -5
brobear I concur. Funny that even the mightiest of felines ( Sabretooth cat) gets outweighed by the bruin at equal HBL and then we've got fanatics like Ross Wind claiming lions are the most heavily built land carnivore. That's hilarious. No research; Simply biased opinion based on "I like lions."
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Post by brobear on Aug 4, 2022 4:53:37 GMT -5
Were Saber-Toothed Cat Fangs Strong Enough to Puncture Bone? www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/were-saber-toothed-cat-fangs-strong-enough-puncture-bone-180972335/ Some experts think not, but a new study suggests that holes in two saber-toothed cat skulls were caused by in-fighting. My thoughts; for Smilodon to use those big canine teeth, he first had to subdue his adversary and hold it still long enough to inflict a quick slice or a quick jab. If his 400+ pound opponent is struggling, then the big teeth are likely to be broken. Therefore, I highly doubt that a skull-bite was a method routinely used by the saber-toothed cat in killing prey or another predator. Perhaps, in a clash between two Smilodons, skull bites were more commonplace, but I have my doubts. I have found no reports of Smilodon using the skull-bite method for killing any other large animals other than two of his own kind.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 7, 2022 15:39:11 GMT -5
/\ It won’t be easy to pierce the skull of an opponent which is fighting back and not running.
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