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Post by nocapakabl on Oct 22, 2021 17:26:44 GMT -5
Quote from above: A particularly large S. populator skull from Uruguay measuring 39 cm (15 in) in length indicates this individual may have weighed as much as 436 kg (961 lb). It stood at a shoulder height of 120 cm (47 in). Shoulder height - 3 feet 11 inches. Weight - 961 pounds. Average Ussuri brown bear: Head-and-body length - 6 feet 5 inches. ( max 8 feet 3 inches ). Shoulder height - 3 feet 9.24 inches. ( max 4 feet 2 inches ). Weight - 582.02 pounds. ( max 707.68 pounds ). Too bad we don't have a head-and-body length of this saber-toothed cat. No worries, i can measure it.
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 5:33:08 GMT -5
There are three major subspecies of Smilodon: -Smilodon populator: max. size of 230cm in length, 120cm at the shoulders and a weight of 400-450kg, -Smilodon fatalis: max. size of 220cm in length, 110cm at the shoulders and a weight of 250kg-Smilodon gracilis : max size of 200cm in length, 75cm at the shoulders and a weight of 150kg
I would personally divide it into groups to make some interesting matchups:
-Smilodon populator: best matchups would be an Alaskan coastal grizzly bear, Kamchatka brown bear, Kodiak bear and a polar bear. -Smilodon fatalis: best matchups would be an East Siberian brown bear, Eurasian brown bear, inland grizzly bear and an Ussuri brown bear. -Smilodon gracilis: best matchups would be an American black bear, Asian black bear, giant panda, sloth bear and a spectacled bear.
The sun bear just is a viable prey option for the much larger and therefore stronger felids imo.
'Taker gives Smilodon populator a head-and-body length of 230cm ( 7 feet 6.60 inches ). So, which brown bear species ( male ) averages roughly this same length? According to Reply #1 on our topic: "Amur Tiger vs Ussuri Brown Bear", the male Ussuri brown bear has an average head-and-body length of 196cm ( 6 feet 5.16 inches ). Therefore, I was wrong about the Ussuri brown bear being the best match-up for Smilodon populator. ( according to this; off by a foot ).
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 5:57:15 GMT -5
So; which brown bear subspecies matches Smilodon populator in head-and-body length parity. Kamchatka? Alaskan peninsula brown bear? Kodiak? Any and all data, corrections, and/or opinions are not only welcome but appreciated. *Note: Wikipedia gives the Kamchatka and the Alaskan Peninsula brown bear a head-and-body length of 2.4 m ( 7.9 feet ).
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 6:33:55 GMT -5
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1631068319300612 Evidence of intraspecific agonistic interactions in Smilodon populator (Carnivora, Felidae). Abstract The saber-toothed cat Smilodon is a characteristic genus of the Pleistocene faunas of the American continent. Smilodon belongs to an extinct clade of felids that had hypertrophied blade-like upper canines. Because the length of the canines is so extreme, the killing bite of Smilodon is a hotly debated topic in vertebrate paleontology. Some authors have proposed that saber-toothed cats had a weak bite and their canines were fragile, not useful for attacking prey or penetrating bones. The aim of the present contribution is to describe two new specimens of Smilodon populator that have injuries on their skulls. Although it cannot be ruled out that the injuries were caused by a potential prey kicking the skull, the size, shape and general features of the injuries suggest that they were inflicted by the upper canines of another Smilodon individual during agonistic interactions. *Possibly ( but unconfirmed ) skull bites during a fight between ( probably ) two male Smilodons.
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 6:47:52 GMT -5
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217311892 Summary Ancient DNA from the saber-toothed cat Homotherium reveals that the late Pleistocene species from Europe and North America were the same. Homotherium turns out to be only distantly related to the well-known saber-toothed Smilodon.
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 13:44:46 GMT -5
Quote from above: A particularly large S. populator skull from Uruguay measuring 39 cm (15 in) in length indicates this individual may have weighed as much as 436 kg (961 lb). It stood at a shoulder height of 120 cm (47 in). Shoulder height - 3 feet 11 inches. Weight - 961 pounds. Average Ussuri brown bear: Head-and-body length - 6 feet 5 inches. ( max 8 feet 3 inches ). Shoulder height - 3 feet 9.24 inches. ( max 4 feet 2 inches ). Weight - 582.02 pounds. ( max 707.68 pounds ). Too bad we don't have a head-and-body length of this saber-toothed cat. No worries, i can measure it. Sent to me by nocapakabl: I tried measuring this skeletal at a shoulder height of 120cms and i get roughly ~220cms in length excluding the tail.
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 13:49:46 GMT -5
nocap came up with: 220 cm ( 7 feet 2.64 inches ). 'Taker came up with: 230 cm ( 7 feet 6.60 inches ). Neither is wrong and with either choice, Smilodon populator matches a coastal brown bear in head-and-body length. Average fully grown male Alaska Peninsula brown bear (9 years+) - 857.6 pounds. Smilodon populator: max. size of 230cm in length, 120cm at the shoulders and a weight of 400-450kg ( 881.85 to 992.08 pounds ). A full-grown male Alaskan Peninsula brown bear can weigh anywhere from 800 to 1400 pounds.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Oct 27, 2021 14:11:13 GMT -5
brobear These are a few older comments of mine; I don't know precisely about the HB-length of Smilodon Populator. If you get 220cm for a skeletal with a height of 120cm it is longer than your average coastal brownie/Kodiak bear. The bears in Miller's sample were 244cm over the curves (~205cm straight line) and weighed 357kg. I haven't seen any straight line measurements on brown bears except for Blanchard's Yellowstone sample but my guess is that the largest brown bears in the world (those passing 600 or even 700kg) may be about 260cm in a straight line which is quite a bit shorter than some polar bear behemoths who can reach or even surpass 285cm. My calculation:Smilodon Populator: 220-230cm long and 433kg (Maximum Size) Alaskan Peninsula/Kodiak Bear: 220-230cm long and 448-512kg (large male) - calculated based on Miller's sample Important to note is that the bears in Miller's sample were at their leanest (summer) and probably had a body fat percentage of 10-15%; so in autumn the bear could add 50-100kg. Nevertheless, even at his leanest state a brown bear would have a slight - moderate advantage in the weight/body length department over the proportionally strongest and probably most "bearish" cat of all time.
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 14:37:10 GMT -5
Thank you 'Taker. 433 kg = 954.60 pounds. 448 kg = 987.67 pounds / 512 kg = 1,128.77 pounds.
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Post by nocapakabl on Oct 27, 2021 15:19:10 GMT -5
brobear These are a few older comments of mine; I don't know precisely about the HB-length of Smilodon Populator. If you get 220cm for a skeletal with a height of 120cm it is longer than your average coastal brownie/Kodiak bear. The bears in Miller's sample were 244cm over the curves (~205cm straight line) and weighed 357kg. I haven't seen any straight line measurements on brown bears except for Blanchard's Yellowstone sample but my guess is that the largest brown bears in the world (those passing 600 or even 700kg) may be about 260cm in a straight line which is quite a bit shorter than some polar bear behemoths who can reach or even surpass 285cm. My calculation:Smilodon Populator: 220-230cm long and 433kg (Maximum Size) Alaskan Peninsula/Kodiak Bear: 220-230cm long and 448-512kg (large male) - calculated based on Miller's sample Important to note is that the bears in Miller's sample were at their leanest (summer) and probably had a body fat percentage of 10-15%; so in autumn the bear could add 50-100kg. Nevertheless, even at his leanest state a brown bear would have a slight - moderate advantage in the weight/body length department over the proportionally strongest and probably most "bearish" cat of all time. Note that a bear of such weight would be anywhere from 10+cm taller than a smilodon populator, too. I think it is hard to compare their body lengths or shoulder heights to determine bulk as they have significantly different proportions.
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Post by nocapakabl on Oct 27, 2021 15:32:44 GMT -5
There are three major subspecies of Smilodon: -Smilodon populator: max. size of 230cm in length, 120cm at the shoulders and a weight of 400-450kg, -Smilodon fatalis: max. size of 220cm in length, 110cm at the shoulders and a weight of 250kg-Smilodon gracilis : max size of 200cm in length, 75cm at the shoulders and a weight of 150kg
I would personally divide it into groups to make some interesting matchups:
-Smilodon populator: best matchups would be an Alaskan coastal grizzly bear, Kamchatka brown bear, Kodiak bear and a polar bear. -Smilodon fatalis: best matchups would be an East Siberian brown bear, Eurasian brown bear, inland grizzly bear and an Ussuri brown bear. -Smilodon gracilis: best matchups would be an American black bear, Asian black bear, giant panda, sloth bear and a spectacled bear.
The sun bear just is a viable prey option for the much larger and therefore stronger felids imo.
'Taker gives Smilodon populator a head-and-body length of 230cm ( 7 feet 6.60 inches ). So, which brown bear species ( male ) averages roughly this same length? According to Reply #1 on our topic: "Amur Tiger vs Ussuri Brown Bear", the male Ussuri brown bear has an average head-and-body length of 196cm ( 6 feet 5.16 inches ). Therefore, I was wrong about the Ussuri brown bear being the best match-up for Smilodon populator. ( according to this; off by a foot ). I am replying to an old post by UT45 here. Personally, i don't think smilodon fatalis in quite on the level of a large ussuri brown bear male, weighing in excess of 280kg; there is a publication evaluating average sizes for S. Fatalis from fossils discovered in equador and peru where the average size was around 226kg, which would be around the size of a slightly above average bengal tiger male. The bear would have too many advantages in this case, but a larger S fatalis weighing 260-300kg could definitely be a great matchup.
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 16:22:47 GMT -5
Makes good sense nocapakabl. Smilodon fatalis vs Ussuri brown bear / Smilodon populator vs coastal brown bear ( Kamchatka, Alaskan Peninsula, or Kodiak ).
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Post by brobear on Oct 27, 2021 21:40:03 GMT -5
*In my own words: In Smilodon, we find the combination of long, knife-like canines ( often referred to as fangs ) which ( like a knife ) are broad front-to-back but very thin from side-to-side and forelimbs ( arms ) which are heavy-boned and extremely muscled. These teeth are designed to slice through soft flesh. If used on a large heavy adversary during the struggle, the saber-toothed cat can easily break one or both of his saber teeth. Thus, Smilodon depends on his herculean strength to wrestle and subdue his prey. He must position his prey and hold his prey still long enough to use those long canines that he is most famous for. One quick slice - the "coup de grace" -and it's over. Against a big brown bear of near-equal HB length, and greater weight, the saber-toothed cat is not likely to immobilize the bear and use those wicked teeth. During the struggle, the bear can use both tooth and claw. In the end ( IMO ) the bear's greater durability and stamina will win the fight more often than not.
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Post by brobear on Oct 29, 2021 3:08:33 GMT -5
bgr.com/science/saber-toothed-cat-skull-tooth-bite/ Ancient saber-toothed cats could crush a skull with their teeth. New research conducted by a team of scientists in Argentina reveals that the saber-toothed cat species Smilodon populator was equipped with teeth powerful enough to puncture skulls. In fact, the researchers have evidence of at least one such skull-busting incident, with fossils of one saber-toothed cat bearing the scars of a bite from one of its kin. *This single incident has ignited a cheering session among big cat fans. How many prey animals have been found with saber-toothed cat fang-wounds on their skulls? Answer - zero. In one battle, probably two males fighting over a female, and probably in an act of desperation, a strong male had his opponent subdued and immobilized, but in the wrong position. The throat was not visible, so the big cat took a chance and bit into his opponent's skull. This Smilodon was lucky. If his adversary had managed to struggle as he was biting, his teeth would have been broken. ( IMO ), There are many strange one-time events recorded in the wild, such as natural enemies becoming pals or much weaker prey animals killing the stronger predator. Animal droppings happen. But, as a general rule, Smilodon had a single killing strategy - immobilize your opponent and slice his soft throat.
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Post by brobear on Oct 29, 2021 3:42:36 GMT -5
phys.org/news/2017-09-saber-toothed-kittens-born-thicker-bones.html?fbclid=IwAR1xKU1ONd8IH2OB-yfWf3Vm-QwOPKidqRPSF4FZ_r17KCMP8T0RXD7gpD8 Saber-toothed kittens may have been born with thicker bones than other contemporary cats. Saber-toothed kittens may have been born with thicker bones compared to other contemporary cats, but they have a similar pattern of bone development, according to a study published September 27, 2017 in the open-access journal PLOS ONE by Katherine Long from California State Polytechnic University, USA and colleagues. Saber-toothed cats (Smilodon fatalis) from the Pleistocene (37,000 to 9,000 years ago) have been previously recognized as having more robust skeletons compared to other wild cats. However, how and when saber-toothed cats developed these strong bones is a mystery. To better understand the growth of Smilodon bones in comparison to a similar species, Long and colleagues measured and analyzed hundreds of bones at various stages of development from both Smilodon and the contemporary tiger-sized cat Panthera atrox in the La Brea Tar Pits museum. The researchers found that while Smilodon bones were more robust than the Panthera bones, they did not increase in robustness with age as expected, but were born with more robust bones to begin with. They found that the growth of Smilodon bones followed a similar pattern to other primitive cat species, where the bones actually grow longer and more slender than they grow thick. This finding suggests that the growth and development of feline species is more tightly constrained than previously thought, even with species with very different bone structures. "Saber-tooth cats had extraordinarily strong front limbs for tackling and subduing prey before they slashed their throats or bellies with their saber-like canine teeth," says co-author Don Prothero. "Using the extraordinary collection of limb bones of saber-tooth kittens at La Brea tar pits, we found that their limbs don't become more robust as they grew up, but instead retain the stereotypical growth pattern where the limbs grow longer more quickly than they grow thick. To compensate, saber-tooth kittens were born with unusually robust limbs and retained that pattern as they grew."
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 29, 2021 8:28:13 GMT -5
I remember this account. It looks like brown bears and polar bears might actually have thicker bones than smilodons.
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Post by brobear on Oct 29, 2021 9:17:20 GMT -5
I remember this account. It looks like brown bears and polar bears might actually have thicker bones than smilodons. Well, I wouldn't make any claims like that without seeing some actual comparisons.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 30, 2021 8:33:09 GMT -5
I remember this account. It looks like brown bears and polar bears might actually have thicker bones than smilodons. Well, I wouldn't make any claims like that without seeing some actual comparisons. True but the larger male polar bear would have overall stronger bones than a smilodon populator as the former is much heavier on average.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 30, 2021 8:35:27 GMT -5
Here is another size comparison estimate.
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Post by brobear on Oct 31, 2021 10:27:40 GMT -5
www.inverse.com/science/images-saber-tooth-tiger-skulls-reveal-their-truly-terrifying-size?utm_campaign=inverse&utm_content=1601310346&utm_medium=owned&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2rdaVA00FsrpQHy4Wo_9ukGJuPSe3L8E24mgwON2r1IyT0EzooLRv5yDo As recently as 12,000 years ago, ancient humans shared the Earth with a monster unlike anything we know today — and it was even bigger and more terrifying than we first thought. The saber-tooth tiger Smilodon populator already had a rep as the largest of all the saber-tooth tigers. But according to the latest archaeological findings from Uruguay, we have been underestimating it nonetheless. In a study published this month in the journal Alcheringa, researchers detail how a gigantic Smilodon skull, found among sediments of the Dolores Formation in the west and south of Uruguay, completely changes paleontologists’ understanding of this ferocious feline. “Average Smilodon populator skulls are around 35 cm ( 13.78 inches ) long, with the length measured from premaxillary to condyle,” Aldo Manzuetti, a graduate student at Uruguay's University of the Republic and an author on the study, tells Inverse. “This material is almost 38 cm ( 14.96 inches ) in the same measurement, almost 40 cm ( 15.75 inches ) in total skull length.” Based on measurements of the long bones in the new skull, Manzuetti and his team were able to estimate just how big the cat truly was: Up to 436 kg. (961.22 pounds ). That is the weight of a grand piano. "If humans were around at the same time as these giant cats, as they were elsewhere, then good luck to them," Mirjana Roksandic, a prehistoric anthropologist from the University of Winnipeg tells Inverse. Saber-tooth tigers like Smilodon were voracious predators, hunting giant sloths and other herbivores across North and South America between 1 million and 10,000 years ago. And while there were several other genus of saber-tooth, Smilodon populator was like no other cat before it. It was "a very robust and muscular felid, with massive forelimbs, and short tail,” Aldo Manzuetti, a doctoral student in paleontology at Uruguay's University of the Republic, tells Inverse. “It stands out thanks to its long-saber canines." The new weight estimate is far above anything researchers have found before — suggesting these animals were far more giant, and more powerful, than we could have imagined. “Smilodon populator body mass estimate was around 220-360 kilograms, with some individuals being around 400 kilograms,” Manzuetti says. “This material is 407 kg average and 436 kg maximum," he says. "It’s a bear-size Smilodon.” In fact, according to these findings, the only animal that would have been larger living at the time were short-faced bears, Arctotherium Burmeister (estimated at some 1,000 kg on average). This massive skull doesn't just change our image of Smilodon populator; it also changes what we know about its capabilities and diet. The tiger's gigantic jaws mean it could likely handle prey weighing up to 3 tons. Previously, researchers had thought the big cat would only manage a comparably puny 1-ton meal. Rather, it would have been the "apex predator" of its time, Manzuetti says, having a profound effect on the other fauna that roamed the Americas along side it. Now, the researchers want to find more bones to build out their picture of this hulk of an animal. “Was this the only specimen of an extremely large size? Was it forming part of a whole population of huge Smilodon populators?” Manzuetti asks. “These questions are difficult to explain with only this material, thus it could be that we may not understand the overall ecological impact of this large-bodied predator on the faunas of the past.”
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