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Post by tom on Jan 18, 2019 18:27:23 GMT -5
You might be right, But the major differences are the Bison has a lethal head gear and a nasty temperament to go with it. I'm guessing this domestic bull, while it could have aggressive tendencies as do many domestic bulls, he lacks the weaponry and must rely on his size and strength alone.
I think the Bears claws alone could do serious damage and cause massive wounds on the comparatively thin skinned bull. Would it be enough.... possibly.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 18, 2019 18:41:33 GMT -5
The Belgian Blue is an impressive breed by many accounts. This well-muscled beast originated from northern and central Belgium on mainland Europe, possibly from a mix of Shorthorn and Charolais. Although the breed may have existed for hundreds of years prior to the last century, it was in the 1960s that the striking characteristics of the Belgian Blue were properly established! The breed is known by many names, likely as a result of its popularity among the different language-regions of Europe. The Race de la Moyenne et Haute Belgigue, Belgian Blue-White, Belgian White-and-Blue Pied and simply Blue are all common names for the cattle. As the name suggests, they come in a range of colours from white, blue roan, black or even red. Belgian Blues are recognisable from their extremely muscled frame and huge size. In fact, they actually develop what is called ‘double-muscling’! They have well-defined backs and loins with strong-looking legs, and bulls can often reach a weight of 1250kg, while cows weigh about 900kg. These cattle are sturdy, and do well in most climates. The Irish climate is no exception, and Blues are certainly adapted to our temperate oceanic weather with its lack of extreme temperatures. The odd chilly winter or hot spell in summer isn’t a problem for these animals. However, cold climates can be tough on Blues, as their skin is thin and they don’t deposit much fat. Belgian Blues are considered quite docile despite their threatening size! Their temperament is often described as pleasant and compliant; however, when dealing with bulls of any breed, it’s extremely important to take caution! Take a look at our article on Bull Safety for a reminder of the best ways to deal with tricky males. There can be quite a few complications with these cattle, especially when breeding Blue with Blue. The purebred status of the calves can mean that birth by caesarean section is often the only option in around 90% of cases, so it’s important to bear this in mind when choosing a dam for your Belgian Blue bull. The birthing weight of purebred calves can be very high, making natural birth very difficult for the cow. In Ireland, caesarean procedures are quite expensive, making it a possible issue for farmers who worry about the cost. However, many farmers say that calving poses no problem at all when Belgian Blues bulls are bred with another type of cattle. There are claims that the birthing of calves from a Belgian Blue sire is far easier than that of the Charolais, Simmental or Friesian. This could be beneficial to farmers worrying about calving issues, especially if they’re working alone on their land without the help of another pair of hands. www.thatsfarming.com/news/belgian-blue
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 18, 2019 18:47:09 GMT -5
Yeah Tom you are right about the head gear, the belgium blue bull lacks the horns that the american bison has. But 2700 lbs is just too large for a 1400 lb or even a 1500 lb bear. its out of range i think.
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Post by brobear on Jan 19, 2019 5:26:21 GMT -5
First of all, as in any bull vs bear fight, we must have a bear with experience in killing cattle. A 1500 pound Kodiak bear who knows exactly how to go about wrestling with a bull and how to execute the kill just might stand a chance of killing this brute. The Belgian Blue bull appears to be roughly the size of a gaur. When a grizzly fights a bull ( historically ) the bull usually had a substantial weight advantage. The bear used his wrestling skills and killing technique. So maybe...
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 19, 2019 5:34:43 GMT -5
Well Tom asked if a kodiak would predate on a 2700 lb Belgium blue bull if it was raised at Kodiak island, if we go by grizzlies barely predating on adult bisons which go up to 2200 lbs max, then it should not happen. Anyways, why would a kodiak even try a 2700 lb animal with all the salmon and dead whales around?
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Post by brobear on Jan 19, 2019 5:51:03 GMT -5
Hypothetically, if a big boar bear was killing cattle routinely, and getting away with it, then he might take one look at all that beef-on-the-hoof, start drooling, and go for it. I doubt that he would consider the bull as such dangerous prey as he might a bull bison ( if he knew of them ).
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 19, 2019 6:04:29 GMT -5
By the way, that is a really weird looking cattle, the Belgium blue bull is all ripped with muscles, i like that mutation they did there.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 19, 2019 6:08:02 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 19, 2019 6:12:10 GMT -5
By the way, that is a really weird looking animal, the Belgium blue bull is all ripped with muscles, i like that mutation they did there. Muscle equals beef. By the way; consider a 300 pound barren ground grizzly confronting a musk ox bull weighing from 700 to 900 pounds. Although there have been a few cases of grizzly being killed, the bear has a huge success rate.
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Post by tom on Jan 19, 2019 8:30:15 GMT -5
It's very lean beef comparatively to other species of cattle. I think that is what the Belgians had in mind.
You bring up a good point Kodiak about why the Kodiak Bears would prey upon a domestic bull like big blue when during a good portion of the summer and early fall he has much easier Salmon to catch and feed on.
So, this was purely a hypothetical that if the Bears had easy access to these bulls in a pasture and decided he preferred beef over Salmon one day, would he be able to handle one. I stand by what I said (while keeping Brobear's comment about experience in handling bulls in mind) that the claws on the Bear could cause massive wounds to the relatively thin skinned bull and literally have it bleed out without having to wrestle it to the ground. Because of the way I've seen Bears fight however, he likely would still try and get the behemoth off his feet, but in doing so he could do some real damage with the claws.
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Post by brobear on Jan 19, 2019 8:42:40 GMT -5
I agree with all you said Tom. Also, the bear may savage the bull's mouth and, if given the chance, rip out the bull's tongue, causing massive bleeding. Bear's have no qualms about being a dirty fighter.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 19, 2019 8:50:11 GMT -5
We have to take some things into consideration here: the Belgium blue bull is a very calm animal yes, but gets very agrressive when attacked. Also, even though the skin might be thin an weak and get damaged by bear claws, just the sheer size of the bull will prevent the Kodiak from even trying to predate it, maybe a 2000 lb bull, but not the largest 2700 lb ones.
but thats predation, if forced to fight in a cage or pit, that is a different story. The kodiak will definatly fight sure, that would be a great fight, 1500 lb kodiak vs 2700 lb blue bull, the bear has alot more experience fighting and the claws, the bull is much larger, almost double the weight, but lacks tools it looks like. Maybe 50%.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 19, 2019 9:04:46 GMT -5
Guys: bears have beaten up spanish bulls most times in the Roman Colosseum and then in the California pit fights, but in the wild, do they try to predate a bison 2000+ lbs? Barely, how many accounts we have of grizzlies predating adult male bisons? Very very few. The bear is not gona try to predate a 2700 lb animal guys, even though he knows he can win the fight. Unless of course we have a......shatun bear.
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Post by brobear on Jan 19, 2019 9:44:15 GMT -5
In the old west, grizzlies fed heavily on the herds of bison ( from 50 to 100 million ) on the prairie. But no, I doubt that any grizzly ever purposely challenged a bull bison. A completely different animal from any domesticated cattle.
Tom wrote:
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 19, 2019 10:43:53 GMT -5
A 1500 lb bear would have to have alot of experience killing large cattle, and be hungry enough. even then it would barely happen, in my opinion.
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Post by brobear on Jan 24, 2019 9:13:23 GMT -5
All we truly have here are our opinions. I believe, any grizzly that can kill a bull bison can kill any bull bovine.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 26, 2019 13:30:12 GMT -5
An illustration of a bear- bull fight by HM Stoops. Published in The San Francisco Call on January 15, 1911.
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Post by brobear on Feb 8, 2019 8:06:46 GMT -5
Lions hunting buffalo ( about 10 minutes into the video ). You never see a lion or any other big cat make a frontal attack. It takes a grizzly.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 11, 2019 7:15:53 GMT -5
A WITNESS DESCRIBED HOW A BEAR WITH ITS ENTRAILS DRAGGING, RIPPED OFF THE TONGUE, THE EARS, AND MUCH OF THE LOWER JAW OF THE BULL.
ONCE A BEAR GOT A HOLD OF THE BULLS TONGUE, THE BATTLE SOON ENDED IN COMPLETE TRIUMPH FOR THE GRIZZLY.
OUR TABULATIONS OF FIGHT RESULTS DURING THE SPANISH PERIOD SHOW THAT THE GRIZZLY MOST OFTEN TRIUMPHED. (OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT THE BULL WOULD TRIUMPH).
FLINT OBSERVED A CONTEST IN WHICH FOURTEEN BULLS WERE CONQUERED BY FIVE BEARS.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 11, 2019 18:42:22 GMT -5
PAGE 151: WE HAVE FINALLY ARRIVED AT THE HISTORIC PAGE WITH THE HISTORIC ACCOUNT. I KNOW ITS BEEN POSTED MANY TIMES IN THIS FORUM, BUT ITS WORTH IT. THE GREAT CALIFORNIAN HANDLED THE AFRICAN KING AS A CAT WOULD A RAT. HE KILLED HIM SO QUICKLY THAT THE AUDIENCE HARDLY KNEW HOW IT WAS DONE. IN 1870, I SAW A BEAR DIG A HOLE LARGE ENOUGH TO HOLD AN ELEPHANT, TAKE A BULL WHICH WAS SENT TO FIGHT HIM IN HIS PAWS AS IF HE WAS AN INFANT, CARRY HIM TO THE PIT, SLAP HIM ON THE SIDE UNTIL HIS BREATH WAS KNOCKED OUT, BURIED HIM ALIVE.
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