|
Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2023 10:24:50 GMT -5
Tiger, as an object of feeding bears. 12 known cases of brown bears kill tigers (Sysoev, 1950; Sysoev, 1960; Abramov, 1962; Rakow, 1970; Gorokhov, 1973; Kostoglod, 1981). All the tigers were eaten by bears. In such battles more likely weakened by the loss, including injured and old animals, so the brown bear activity contributes to bridging the tiger population of potentially dangerous animals to humans (Kostoglod, 1981).
It is clear that brown bears reap greater benefit from the presence of tigers because tigers killed animals - a source of protein food for bears. Therefore, not surprisingly, bears commonly use this source, even if it requires a direct clash with the Tigers., Tigers, it seems unable to prevent adult male brown bears away from their food. - Dale Miquelle.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2023 12:30:13 GMT -5
1c - Predation on tigers
Bears do not habitually hunt tigers, but it is known adult male brown bears consume tigers killed in disputes. It seems some adult male brown bears, in some circumstances, deliberately target tigers (posts 520 and 536). Kostoglod mentioned a case in which a bear followed a tiger for a long distance (Chapter 19). The tiger escaped, but another one was attacked, killed and eaten. Although tigresses sometimes perish in fights with male brown bears, the number is incidents is too limited to get to general statements.
In 2010, two tigresses, a subadult (19 months of age) and an 8-year old ('Vera') with two (about 18 months old) cubs, were killed by brown bears (post 520). Apart from the fact they were killed by brown bears, not much was known. The young tigress, behaviourwise, showed signs of disease and it is also known at least 4 other tigers (two subadult males, one adult female and one adult male) displayed abnormal behaviour before their death (Miquelle). There is no additional information on the 8-year old tigress mentioned above.
In the last 50 years, according to Alexious3, at least two adult male tigers have been killed by brown bears (post 568). One perished in 1960 and it could be this is the case used by Sysoev for his fictional story on 'Amba'. Another tiger died after a fight in 1972. Rukovsky mentioned another incident (post 70). Two of the three male tigers killed, at roundabout four years of age, were young adults. The third one was described as a medium-sized animal (age unknown).
There are other accounts of male tigers killed by brown bears (Sysoev mentioned two cases and Bonns mentioned an incident near or in a river in 1943), but these, as far as is known, have not been acknowledged by researchers. The number of tigers killed in fights between 1943-1996 (referring to the table posted earlier) indicate there could be more cases (posts 17 and 55). Apart from one, all fights referred to in the table (post 55) were corroborated by Russian researchers, but in most incidents details were missing. It is, however, known brown bears were involved in most incidents.
The information available suggests most tigers killed were killed in winter. As brown bears hibernate in winter, it has to be assumed non-hibernating bears ('Shatuns') were involved in most of these. Schatuns are desperate animals and most seem to perish. This means many would be inclined to attack any animal, tigers and other (hibernating) bears included (post 584).
Although at least one was a smallish female who killed and ate a much larger hibernating male brown bear, most Schatuns seem to be males. As most of the 'large brown bears' killed by tigers mentioned above were killed in winter, it has to be assumed some, if not all, of these were Schatuns. Same for tigers killed in winter.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2023 11:56:44 GMT -5
1c - Predation on tigers Bears do not habitually hunt tigers, but it is known adult male brown bears consume tigers killed in disputes. It seems some adult male brown bears, in some circumstances, deliberately target tigers (posts 520 and 536). Kostoglod mentioned a case in which a bear followed a tiger for a long distance (Chapter 19). The tiger escaped, but another one was attacked, killed and eaten. Although tigresses sometimes perish in fights with male brown bears, the number is incidents is too limited to get to general statements. In 2010, two tigresses, a subadult (19 months of age) and an 8-year old ('Vera') with two (about 18 months old) cubs, were killed by brown bears (post 520). Apart from the fact they were killed by brown bears, not much was known. The young tigress, behaviourwise, showed signs of disease and it is also known at least 4 other tigers (two subadult males, one adult female and one adult male) displayed abnormal behaviour before their death (Miquelle). There is no additional information on the 8-year old tigress mentioned above. In the last 50 years, according to Alexious3, at least two adult male tigers have been killed by brown bears (post 568). One perished in 1960 and it could be this is the case used by Sysoev for his fictional story on 'Amba'. Another tiger died after a fight in 1972. Rukovsky mentioned another incident (post 70). Two of the three male tigers killed, at roundabout four years of age, were young adults. The third one was described as a medium-sized animal (age unknown). There are other accounts of male tigers killed by brown bears (Sysoev mentioned two cases and Bonns mentioned an incident near or in a river in 1943), but these, as far as is known, have not been acknowledged by researchers. The number of tigers killed in fights between 1943-1996 (referring to the table posted earlier) indicate there could be more cases (posts 17 and 55). Apart from one, all fights referred to in the table (post 55) were corroborated by Russian researchers, but in most incidents details were missing. It is, however, known brown bears were involved in most incidents. The information available suggests most tigers killed were killed in winter. As brown bears hibernate in winter, it has to be assumed non-hibernating bears ('Shatuns') were involved in most of these. Schatuns are desperate animals and most seem to perish. This means many would be inclined to attack any animal, tigers and other (hibernating) bears included (post 584). Although at least one was a smallish female who killed and ate a much larger hibernating male brown bear, most Schatuns seem to be males. As most of the 'large brown bears' killed by tigers mentioned above were killed in winter, it has to be assumed some, if not all, of these were Schatuns. Same for tigers killed in winter. Link the accounts please, they're important so whenever i get into debates then i could use them.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 4, 2023 12:56:38 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 11, 2023 6:15:30 GMT -5
Brown bears do not go out of their way to hunt and chase tigers. It is because they are not full time carnivores. Can kill and do kill are different. I wonder why Ussuri brown bears stop killing tigers in modern days (21st century) research except two tigresses but there are a lot more accounts of tigers killed in the old accounts?
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 11, 2023 6:32:04 GMT -5
Brown bears do not go out of their way to hunt and chase tigers. It is because they are not full time carnivores. Can kill and do kill are different. I wonder why Ussuri brown bears stop killing tigers in modern days (21st century) research except two tigresses but there are a lot more accounts of tigers killed in the old accounts? Brown bears never did view tigers as a prey animal. Neither do they seek out mustelids or skunks. In Russia, brown bears hunt red deer and wild boar. An adult tiger is killed when it is foolish enough to challenge an adult brown bear. This can be a mother tigress defending her cubs or defending a carcass that her cubs are depending on. A mother will face adversaries for her offspring that she would not ordinarily face. The other are the young adults; the tiger versions of foolish teenage boys. I seriously believe that a tiger, even the biggest male, will flee from a charging mother brown bear defending her cubs.
|
|
|
Post by Granolah on Jan 16, 2023 19:04:58 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 19, 2023 12:01:51 GMT -5
The tiger-fanboy-wonder says (quote): "No, only tigers are known to kill and devour brown bears, not vice versa. Krechmar is clearly wrong about that. When's the last time a brown bear killed any tiger? There's not a single reliable account of a brown bear killing even a little tiger cub in the last 30 years."
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 12:48:46 GMT -5
Year 2000, a brown bear kills two adult female tigers. _________________________________________ Predation on tigers (by Peter) Bears do not habitually hunt tigers, but it is known adult male brown bears consume tigers killed in disputes. It seems some adult male brown bears, in some circumstances, deliberately target tigers (posts 520 and 536). Kostoglod mentioned a case in which a bear followed a tiger for a long distance (Chapter 19). The tiger escaped, but another one was attacked, killed and eaten. Although tigresses sometimes perish in fights with male brown bears, the number is incidents is too limited to get to general statements.
In 2010, two tigresses, a subadult (19 months of age) and an 8-year old ('Vera') with two (about 18 months old) cubs, were killed by brown bears (post 520). Apart from the fact they were killed by brown bears, not much was known. The young tigress, behaviourwise, showed signs of disease and it is also known at least 4 other tigers (two subadult males, one adult female and one adult male) displayed abnormal behaviour before their death (Miquelle). There is no additional information on the 8-year old tigress mentioned above.
In the last 50 years, according to Alexious3, at least two adult male tigers have been killed by brown bears (post 568). One perished in 1960 and it could be this is the case used by Sysoev for his fictional story on 'Amba'. Another tiger died after a fight in 1972. Rukovsky mentioned another incident (post 70). Two of the three male tigers killed, at roundabout four years of age, were young adults. The third one was described as a medium-sized animal (age unknown).
There are other accounts of male tigers killed by brown bears (Sysoev mentioned two cases and Bonns mentioned an incident near or in a river in 1943), but these, as far as is known, have not been acknowledged by researchers. The number of tigers killed in fights between 1943-1996 (referring to the table posted earlier) indicate there could be more cases (posts 17 and 55). Apart from one, all fights referred to in the table (post 55) were corroborated by Russian researchers, but in most incidents details were missing. It is, however, known brown bears were involved in most incidents.
The information available suggests most tigers killed were killed in winter. As brown bears hibernate in winter, it has to be assumed non-hibernating bears ('Shatuns') were involved in most of these. Schatuns are desperate animals and most seem to perish. This means many would be inclined to attack any animal, tigers and other (hibernating) bears included (post 584).
Although at least one was a smallish female who killed and ate a much larger hibernating male brown bear, most Schatuns seem to be males. As most of the 'large brown bears' killed by tigers mentioned above were killed in winter, it has to be assumed some, if not all, of these were Schatuns. Same for tigers killed in winter.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 13:06:02 GMT -5
Conclusions
Tigers in the RFE habitually hunt brown bears for food. Not the other way round. Most bears killed are small to medium-sized animals. Even adult male tigers specialising on brown bears seldom target bears of their own size. Adult females, however, have been killed more than once and there is no doubt (Bromlej, 1965) a tiger is able to kill a larger brown bear.
There are reliable reports on large brown bears killed by tigers. But 'large', apart form the bear killed in the 1951 incident, was never substantiated and most bears were killed in winter, indicating Schatuns were involved in most. Schatuns are desperate animals, willing to attack anything they encounter. When Schatuns attack adult male tigers, fights erupt and these can go either way. It seems Schatuns were involved in most of the few incidents with a tragic outcome.
Some Russian researchers think some adult male brown bears sometimes deliberately target and attack tigresses with cubs in favourable circumstances (snowy conditions). Although it is known tigresses sometimes perish in encounters with male brown bears, the number is too limited to get to conclusions. _______________________________________________________________________________________ My Conclusions: 1- *We have not one single confirmed case of a tiger ever killing a bear near his own size and certainly not a bear larger than himself. 2- Quote: Bromlej (in Heptner and Sludskij, 1980, page 149), in May 1951, found the remains of a 158 cm. (way of measuring unknown) and 170 kg. (approximately) brown bear killed by a tigress near the Tatibe River. *This 1951 story was never substantiated. The tigress was not seen and the bear was not weighed and likely not measured. But, if those estimates are correct, the bear was a fat adolescent bear. 3- Quote: When Schatuns attack adult male tigers, fights erupt and these can go either way. *Except that we do not have one single confirmed account of a tiger killing even a starving sickly shatun bear. 4- Quote: Some Russian researchers think some adult male brown bears sometimes deliberately target and attack tigresses with cubs in favourable circumstances (snowy conditions). Although it is known tigresses sometimes perish in encounters with male brown bears, the number is too limited to get to conclusions. *A tigress with cubs is more likely to stand her ground in defense of her cubs. Also, if she runs, she knows that the bear will catch her cubs. A full-grown male tiger will retreat from a large bear. A young adult male tiger, the equivalent to a young teenage boy, might be foolish enough to fight with an adult male brown bear. This is why all of the tigers known to be killed by a brown bear were either tigress' or young adult male tigers. 5- Peter mentions that some tigers killed by bears might have been sickly. *Perhaps unable to retreat fast enough.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 14:30:23 GMT -5
Dudhwa tiger may have been killed by huge sloth bear: Officials BAREILLY: A tiger found dead in a water hole in Dudhwa range of Dudhwa National Park on Sunday may have been killed by a sloth bear, suspect Dudhwa officials. While no pugmarks of another tiger were found around the water hole, images of a huge sloth bear have been captured by camera traps set 150 metres from the spot. The bear had a few scratches on its face and seemed to be moving about with difficulty. “The nature of injuries on the neck and head of the tiger suggest they may have been caused during an attack by a sloth bear,” said DTR field director Ramesh Pandey. The autopsy report submitted on Monday had said the tiger was killed by a “large carnivore” but did not specifically say it was another tiger. Though a tiger being attacked by a bear is rare, Panday recalled an incident reported from Tadoba National Park in Maharashtra in 2018 when a male tiger, ‘Matkasur’, had picked up a fight with a sloth bear near a water hole. The fight was captured on camera by a tourist. “The video showed the tiger was resting in the water when the sloth bear arrived with its cub. It fought with the bear possibly trying to defend its territory. But Matkasur lost the fight as it struggled to grip the bear’s thick fur. Fortunately, the tiger survived,” the field director said. If nothing else, the great difficulty that a huge male Bengal tiger has against even a female sloth bear well below half the tigers' weight should be enough to terminate any delusions a tiger fan has of his favorite animal fighting and defeating a full-grown male brown bear.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 14:35:19 GMT -5
From Warsaw: While I agree that prime adult male tiger is to much for any sloth bears,but the tigress is much smaller . So the verdict is "Bengal Tiger defeats Sloth Bear, Sloth Bear defeats ( kill after long battle) Bengal Tigress,more often that not............. Although it remains unconfirmed, strong evidence points to the sloth bear as the most likely suspect in the killing of the Dudhwa tiger. Unlike the tiger fanboys, we will not claim this event to be confirmed regardless that all evidence points to the sloth bear as the killer.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:28:12 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:29:55 GMT -5
RUSSIAN HUNTER/NATURALIST VSEVOLOD SYSOEV WITNESSED 4 FIGHTS BETWEEN BEARS AND TIGERS, THE BEAR WON 2 TIMES, THE TIGER 1 TIME, AND IN 1 CASE THEY PARTED WAYS. HERE IS HIS RECREATION FOR HIS BOOK “AMBA”
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:33:02 GMT -5
Wildlife conservation society, (WCS Russia), The Siberian Tiger project chapter 19: 12 KNOWN CASES OF BROWN BEARS KILLING AND EATING TIGERS IN THE WILD, INCLUDING 6 ADULTS. (WE KNOW FROM OTHER RESEARCH THAT 2 WERE YOUNG ADULT MALES OF AROUND 4 YEARS OLD). *Note: a tiger is sexually mature at 3 years old and a 4 year old tiger is young (perhaps lacking in experience) but fully adult. drive.google.com/file/d/10afDwfyao6HMoeBOGhQw4RRkapammvOz/view
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:37:18 GMT -5
1972: TIGER KILLED BY BEAR. (NO DETAILS OF THE TIGER) 1981: ADULT MALE TIGER WOUNDED BY A BROWN BEAR. THE TIGER WAS 12.5 TO 13 YEARS OLD AND 168 KG (370.38 pounds): *Note; the tiger was wounded by the brown bear, meaning that the tiger was able to escape and retreat. Most likely, the bear was an adult female brown bear. Tigers do not stalk adult male brown bears.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:42:13 GMT -5
Aside from the historical 12 tigers killed and eaten by brown bears before 1973, another 7 Amur tigers were killed by bears in the Primorski Krai and Khabarovski Krai in the period from 1985 to 1996. So this would add to a total of 19 Amur tigers killed by brown bears in the wild. ____________________________________________________________________________ NUMBERS, DISTRIBUTION AND HABITAT STATUS OF THE AMUR TIGER IN THE RUSSIAN FAR EAST: E. N. Matyushkin, D. G. Pikunov, Y. M. Dunishenko, D. G. Miquelle , I. G. Nikolaev, E. N. Smirnov, G. P. Salkina, V. K. Abramov, V. I. Bazylnikov, V. G. Yudin, and V. G. Korkishko www.academia.edu/26359194/NUMBERS_DISTRIBUTION_AND_HABITAT_STATUS_OF_THE_AMUR_TIGER_IN_THE_RUSSIAN_FAR_EAST_Express_report_Conducted_by_Conducted_under_the_auspices_of_the_USAID_Russian_Far_East_Environmental_Policy_and_Technology_Project
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:45:58 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:49:06 GMT -5
BOOK, THE TAIGA, BY VSEVOLOD SYSOEV: "The bear, on the other hand, was groping slowly but surely for the tiger's neck. The tiger, agile and strong as it was, was less enduring. It was used to killing instantaneously. It was not adapted for a drawn-out struggle, and soon the tables turned. It was getting the worst of the fight. The bear's powerful jaws closed on its throat. The cat roared hoarsely and beat about in death pains." books.google.com/books?id=fl0mAQAAMAAJ&q=The+bear
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2023 19:51:41 GMT -5
G.F. Gorokhov (1973) writes about another battle, in which there was no winner. The tiger, having noticed a bear walking towards him, lay behind an eversion. Letting the bear closer, he overtook him from the second jump. The bear took the fight. Animals long fought, and both parted with blood. The tiger was coughing up blood after a collision. Brown bear able to not only provide decent resistance to the tiger that attacked him, but also get out of scrum winner. _________________________________________________________ The tiger attacked the brown bear; conclusion: Age of this bear not given, but obviously a young bear. The tiger would not have ambushed a full-grown healthy male brown bear.
|
|