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Post by brobear on Dec 11, 2022 0:46:46 GMT -5
Am I reading this wrong? It sounds like a 400lb (at most) tiger treed a cub and then instead of running upon the mother's approach the tiger killed the ''400-500lb'' bear, sustaining no injuries despite having a head on fight. I remember responding to this "story" once before after Apex Titan proudly posted it. Now, after searching, I'm unable to relocate this tale. Please (any member) repost the whole story here. -Thank you.
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Post by brobear on Dec 11, 2022 0:55:30 GMT -5
Reply #250 - It probably is very rare that a tiger kills a bear cub still with Momma Bear. In the rare case posted above, no doubt that the tiger had discovered the cub some distance from its mother, when the tiger ambushed and made a quick kill of the cub. After that, the female bear put her full attention upon her one remaining young cub. Another possibility, both two-year old cubs climbed the tree and then the mother bear followed them. Then one cub falls out. However, the most likely scenario, the tiger ambushed the two-year old cub, suddenly and unexpectedly as is normal in an ambush. Then, the mother bear clashes with the tiger and stands between him and her injured ( or dead ) cub. But, then, the arrival of people convinces the she-bear to climb up to her remaining cub. *Bottom line; there was no eye-witness to the actual event. Therefore, the details remain unknown. ( mother bear and cub in a tree; sounds more like a black bear ). Another post reads that a brown bear had been treed and an adult bear had been killed. In this case, the adult bear ambushed and killed by the tiger was obviously the mother bear, and the bear in the tree her cub. The mother bear fought the tiger in defense of her cub. We must all remember; a tiger fan will twist a story to fit into his agenda, which is to prove that no beast on earth can best a tiger. Another point to remember, adult female brown bears fall victim to the bigger and stronger male tigers. This does not put a feather into the hat of a tiger fanatic.
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Post by Granolah on Dec 15, 2022 5:49:58 GMT -5
More debuncking:- "From+your+sourceMonitoring, Survey, Utilization And Threats To The Populations Of Asiatic Black Bear And Brown Bear In Sikhote-Alin
Pikunov D.G., Seryodkin I.V.
The official figures of hunting departments do not reflect the actual production of animals. Over Over the past 10 years, the official harvest of brown bears in Primorsky Krai has not exceeded 60 heads. During the 2004 hunting season 80 licenses were allocated for this species in Primorsky Krai, and in 2005 - 100 licenses. The limit was used 74% and 69% accordingly. The actual amounts of withdrawal remain unknown. Apparently, poaching of bears exceeds legal several times over. The demand for bear paws and bile remains unlimited. The price per gram of bile between 1992 and 2005 ranged from $2.5 to $8. Bear paws were valued at 250-1100 rubles per 1 kg. Large batches of paws are regularly smuggled into the PRC. For example, in 2004 an attempt to smuggle 800 paws in the Poltava Customs Office in China was averted. an attempt to smuggle 800 paws of Himalayan and brown bears was foiled. Thus, the demand for bear derivatives is causing an illegal year-round harvest of Himalayan and brown bears. Threats to the conservation of bears and their habitats
The main threat to the well-being of bear populations in Sikhote-Alin is illegal hunting, caused by high demand for bear products and low living standards of local communities. of the local population. Reduction of the area and deterioration of bear habitat quality due to large-scale logging (including cedar and oak), forest fires, and development of forest development of forest areas by roads and other economic facilities is an equally important threat to Sikhote-Alin bear populations. Already today, the bear range in Primorsky Krai is divided into into three isolated areas, in which populations of all large animals are not in contact with each other. with each other. The area of the western and southwestern sections does not exceed 0.6-0.7 mln ha, and The number of bears here is estimated at a few tens of individuals (Pikunov and Seredkin, 2002). Studies in the northeastern provinces of China, in areas bordering Russia, as well as in the territories of Korea and China. In the northeastern provinces of China and on the Korean peninsula, a conclusion can be made that there is no hope for bear recovery there. There are no prospects for bear recovery here. The Sikhote-Alin mountain system is the Sikhote-Alin mountain system is the most promising area for conservation of the jointly inhabited wild populations of Himalayan and brown bears on the Asian continent."
Translation by:-
www.deepl.com/translator-mobileTigers are the only animal (in the taiga) that prey on bears. Not surprising. “Annual increase by 38%” which shows that the tiger predation is not reducing the bears number/affecting it in anyway shape or form, at best it maybe regulates it (Sergey Aramilev, 2020). Also, Gorokhov says the opposite.
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Post by Montezuma on Dec 21, 2022 13:31:44 GMT -5
I have basically debuncked with true information that the brown bear was more revered than tigers in Amur region but i am very interested to criticize this quote. From Peter Jordan: "The Udege revered the tiger more than the bear. For example, hunting the tiger was forbidden while bear's gallblader and body parts parts were taken away without any ritual or taboo."
Now, its is basically very untrue since the Udege like other Amur people revered the bear more than the tiger, as bears are more found in the 'legends and myths' than the tiger. (Johuanan)
"Nevertheless, the conceptual framewprk connected with the bear is both geographically wider and structuraly more elborate than that connected with the tiger." Furthermore, the Udege never hunted the bear without rituals since the bear was an important totem and was even untouchable. Hunting wasn't done oftenly, and if done, it involved rituals.
"The Udege people of the Amur region called bear as a forebear thus the bear was untouchable."
"In the mythical beliefs of the Udege people, as well as many other peoples of the Amur region, the bear waa viewed as the ancestor of people, their relative and totem, as well as the master of forests, mountains and animals and the patron of hunt."
And more interestingly, the udege not only performed rituals, but instead organised 'ceremonies' for appeasing the bear's spirit showing how much the ussuri brown bear feared and respected by them. Note that never ceremonies were held for tiger if they were killed.
The Udege Bear ceremony:
And the bear parts were alimentary. Instead they were held in various spiritual uses and were means of supernatural links and symbols.
"The women udege are seen to carry amulets of bear penises for curing infertility and ease childbirth."
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Post by brobear on Dec 21, 2022 14:14:32 GMT -5
The Udege Bear ceremony:
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Post by Granolah on Dec 23, 2022 15:54:22 GMT -5
“Adult Himalayan black bears ( both sexes ) regularly hunted and eaten by tigers:
Himalayan black bears ( individuals of any age and sex ) were more frequently attacked by tigers (Tkachenko, 2008). Two Himalayan bears—tiger’s prey—found in the reserve appeared to be adult (one of them male, the other, presumably, female). Claws of adult bears were also found repeatedly in the excreta of tigers. According to observations in Bol’shekhekhtsirskii Reserve, the tiger successfully hunted the Himalayan black bear at any time of the year.”
From the same study:
“Brown bear dens are in the upper part of the slopes where the tiger very seldom comes, which makes this species inaccessible. In the warm time of the year, the accessibility of the brown bear (especially of young individuals), unlike the Himalayan black bear, increases considerably.”
The warm time is the summer time. Clearly the young bears have some weakness or disadvantage which makes them more likely to be attacked and killed by tiger .
Also, Khramtsov in this study says young bears (black) are attacked more often.
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Post by Granolah on Dec 23, 2022 16:04:47 GMT -5
“Bears comprised 31.2% in total”.
For black bear in excreta - 21.5 (20 specimens).
21.5%/20=1.075.
So, each of the bear’s found is equal to 1.075.
Even then, look at brown bear - 5.4%.
5.4%/5 (5 specimens found in excreta) is equal to 1.075.
So in 8 YEARS, only 20 specimens were found in tiger excretea, which is not impressive.
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Post by Montezuma on Dec 29, 2022 18:17:51 GMT -5
"From the documentary on animal FACTS - 'Everything You Didn't Know About Animals'... "In Russia, some bears have taken to living in tree nests like frightened birds, and its all because of the biggest cat on earth." Quote from Professor/Anthropologist - Dr Todd Sisotell: "People are scared of bears, well bears are scared of tigers." Quote from wildlife conservationist/biologist - Aletris Neils: "You think of bears as top of the food-chain, but not where there's tigers. Tigers have been documented killing both Black bears and Brown bears where they co-exist with them." Although it is from an animal documentry, yet these statements are very Crap, why? Lets me explain.
First of all, start with the last quote. Who says that bears are not apex predators because of tigers? Do tiger dominate them? Nope, and neither their predation effect on them. Bears in russian far east are still apex predators because even the smaller bear, the sloth bear is considered as an apex predator despite of tiger predation!
www.google.com/amp/s/www.downtoearth.org.in/news/wildlife-&-biodiversity/amp/sloth-bear-dhole-tiger-most-affected-among-apex-predators-globally-due-to-road-development-study-81660
And see here from panthera that apart from "Sun bears, Spectacled bears and Sloth bears", Asian black bears are considered apex predators. View Attachment
panthera.org/newsroom/tigers-clouded-leopards-and-leopards-among-top-ten-apex-predators-most-threatened-global
Furthermore, according to the report from 2020, wolves, brown bears and tigers are considered large carnivores and as apex predators, not only the tiger.
www.researchgate.net/publication/346496013_Interspecific_Interactions_between_Brown_Bears_Ungulates_and_Other_Large_Carnivores
So all bear species are considered as apex predator no matter if they exist with tiger.
And see here by baikov, a russian naturalist.
"Apart from humans, bears have almost no enemies. Only young specimens are attacked by a tiger; in addition, they are greatly annoyed by some species of insects and endocavitary".
No enemy means you are an apex predator, right?
domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/58780/thread
So now they say that bears are afraid of tigers? So they about this:-
View Attachment
books.google.it/books?id=ctDKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PR2&dq=tigers%20are%20afraid%20of%20bears&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjMmPyR_-P4AhXlX_EDHXjYDNYQ6AF6BAgDEAM
And if tigers are not afraid of bears so why do tigers completely avoid adult male brown bears? Hahahaha
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/14/tigers-completely-avoid-adult-ussuri
Even the black bear isn't afraid of the tiger. They do not slways tree up for the same reason.
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/944/thread
Bears also tree up to feed on acorns etc and then make a nest just right over there is order to take rest just right to their food.
russia.wcs.org/en-us/About-Us/Publications/Tiger-Monograph.aspx
On the other hand, a himalyan black bear chased off a mature tigress and her cubs, meaning they arn't afraid of tigers instead tigers fear brown bears as shown above.
Even baikov said that tigers "hesitate when they attack bears.More proof debucking this claim:- "In the forests of northeastern China, there are top predators such as Amur tigers (Panthera tigris altaica), Amur leopards (Panthera pardus orientalis), and bears (Ursus sp.) (Jiang et al., 2015), as well as sympatric mesopredators such as leopard cats (Prionailurus bengalensis), foxes (Vulpes vulpes), raccoon dogs (Nyctereutes procyonoides), yellow-throated martens (Martes flavigula), yellow weasels (Mustela sibirica), and badgers (Meles meles). These top predators play a key role in limiting the expansion of prey populations through top-down effects, thereby maintaining biodiversity, regulating ecosystems, and avoiding profound disruption of plant communities (Miquelle et al., 2010;Roux et al., 2019;Terborgh, 2015)". www.researchgate.net/figure/a-Sikhote-Alin-and-east-Manchurian-Changbaishan-mountain-ecosystems-and-b-current_fig1_285743185As shown in the above study from 2015, both Ussuri brown bear and himalayan black bears are considered top predators along with the tiger. If not, they would be classified as "mesopredators" than "top predators", but the opposite is true. Just, another proof that B ears are top predators like Amur tigers.
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Post by brobear on Dec 29, 2022 18:21:33 GMT -5
From above post:
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Post by Granolah on Dec 31, 2022 17:51:33 GMT -5
"Across all sites, tiger diet varied seasonally, with tigers consuming more bear, and less wild boar biomass during the snow-free months" "In addition, bears constituted a significantly higher proportion of tiger diet in the summer, and while not significant, badgers increased in the diet of tigers during the snow-free period as well"... "The increased predation on bears and badgers is likely due to their increased availability following emergence from hibernation and the increased vulnerability of their young, although tigers do prey on adult bears. Amur tiger predation on bear is not a new phenomenon, but our results, in addition to identifying seasonality in tiger predation of bears, also suggests that bears constitute a relatively large portion of tiger diet, particularly during the snow-free period" ... 6bb13d.pdf ... n_Far_East That study is unvalid. This is based on 770 scats which means that the tiger would have just eat the bear. onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1749-4877.12135So the one who lead the study was Linda Kerley, right? In fact the study is called Kerley et al. 2015. In this study they studied in South West of Primorsky Krai (in which bears comprised 4.2% of tiger's diet), Lazovskii Reserve (in which bears comprised 7.1% of tiger's diet) and Sikhote Alin Reverse (in which bears comprised 12% of tiger's diet). Those results are both indeed unvalid as they are based on tiger scats, the bear species were not determined and there's absence of data. Here's a chart from Seryodkin et al. 2018. redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7226874&u=https%3A//drive.google.com/file/d/10afDwfyao6HMoeBOGhQw4RRkapammvOz/view%3Fusp%3DdrivesdkAlso the resultt from Sikhote Alin appears to be unrealible because it is nowhere as mentioned in the chart. He posted this source numerous times to Warsaw, and Warsaw proved it said young brown bears are killed more often. But did ML listen? Nah. It literally says : “due to their increased availability following emergence from hibernation and the increased vulnerability of their young.” It also says: “ This runs counter to previous assertions that the risk of injury was too high for tigers to regularly predate bears (Miquelle et al. 2010). While bear may remain a relatively minor component of tiger diet relative to ungulates on an annual basis, our study suggests they constitute a seasonally important prey item for tigers.” So bears are a minor component of their diet yearly.
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Post by arctozilla on Jan 2, 2023 6:35:34 GMT -5
ML gets owned and debunked by his own accounts. He even proven that there are verified cases of male adult tigers dying to brown bears.
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Post by brobear on Jan 2, 2023 6:53:38 GMT -5
ML gets owned and debunked by his own accounts. He even proven that there are verified cases of male adult tigers dying to brown bears. True. But, from here, members can copy and paste any post from any online site. However, we will no longer name the poster nor the site. We will adhere to these rules so long as "they" continue to show the same courtesies. domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/86/rules-domain
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Post by Granolah on Jan 4, 2023 15:12:08 GMT -5
Ocharik killed Chlamid! …. Or did he? We don’t know, just like Batalov.
“Here's a recent video (2020) of biologist Alexander Batalov stating that the tiger 'Ochkarik' killed the huge male brown bear 'Chlamida', who was harassing the tigress 'Rashel' and her cubs, to steal her kills.
I got Batalov's statement accurately translated by a Russian poster.
Batalov: Here we have a tigress Rachel, that's her name, she lost two tiger cubs because a brown bear harassed her. He...
Interviewer: Well... it's at least natural, that is, the essence of nature.
Batalov: Absolutely! Absolutely! Yes, he was just pursuing her to take away the loot (food). Well, in the end, two tiger cubs disappeared somewhere, but the male who came, this famous one, our Ochkarik who, after all, well, saved them from this trouble, most likely he liquidated (destroyed) this bear. “
The 16:22 mark”
Posted by “you know who”.
So I guess Batalov himself isn’t sure if the bear died to the tiger. Tho this is from 2020.
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Post by brobear on Jan 4, 2023 18:14:41 GMT -5
Granolah; this is in Russian. ______________________ Quote from poster; “Here's a recent video (2020) of biologist Alexander Batalov stating that the tiger 'Ochkarik' killed the huge male brown bear 'Chlamida'..." Quote from Batalov; "Ochkarik, most likely he liquidated this bear. “ *Note; notice how the tiger fanboy ignores the "most likely" part? _____________________________________________________ 1- W.J. Jankowski report (1943) remains unconfirmed by biologists. 2- Batalov event (2017) remains unconfirmed by biologists. 3- Khabarovsk Territory event (2022) remains unconfirmed by biologists.
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Post by Granolah on Jan 5, 2023 15:59:56 GMT -5
Granolah; this is in Russian. ______________________ Quote from poster; “Here's a recent video (2020) of biologist Alexander Batalov stating that the tiger 'Ochkarik' killed the huge male brown bear 'Chlamida'..." Quote from Batalov; "Ochkarik, most likely he liquidated this bear. “ *Note; notice how the tiger fanboy ignores the "most likely" part? _____________________________________________________ 1- W.J. Jankowski report (1943) remains unconfirmed by biologists. 2- Batalov event (2017) remains unconfirmed by biologists. 3- Khabarovsk Territory event (2022) remains unconfirmed by biologists. It’s translated by a Russian poster. It was posted on wildfact and Carnivora.
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Post by Granolah on Jan 6, 2023 16:13:44 GMT -5
“After that Adult brown bears show their indirect agression to adult tigers by tree marks meaning the bears do not fear tiger instead they give warnings to tigers.”
Kucherenko reported how a large brown bear wasn’t afraid of three tigers (adult female and two almost full grown (4 year olds). It was in one of his books (have to find it again).
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Post by Montezuma on Jan 13, 2023 6:17:10 GMT -5
CREDITED TO @granolah Recently account of tiger killing a large bear was actually a small 3 year old bear called 'Misha' as told by Khabrovsk Park biologist M.P. Milezhik. Q:Здравствуйте, я недавно слышал, что в заповеднике была битва тигра с медведем У вас есть больше информации об этом медведе?
Reserve:Здравствуйте!Медведя звали Миша, кличка «Косолапый», возраст примерно 3 года Подвид бурый. В ходе сражения тигр не пострадал. Начальник отдела охраны Милежик М.П. С Уважением, филиал Большехехцирский ФГ БУ"Заповедное Приамурье'
Translation: Q:Hello, I heard recently that there was a tiger-bear fight in the reserve Do you have any more information about this bear?
Reserve: Hello, the bear's name was Misha, and he was about 3 years old. The tiger wasn't hurt in the battle.
M.P. Milezhik, Head of Protection Department. Sincerely yours, Bolshekhetsirskiy branch of the Federal Wildlife Refuge of the Priamur'e Nature Conservation Area.
ibb.co/VJrpVm4
This also makes me agree with Warsaw’s opinion and Kolchin was right.
Along with Ocharik (not confirmed if he actually killed him). And Mazak (Jankowski didn’t mention signs of a fight, and just found a tiger feasting on a bear carcass, and surprisingly he never even said the bears species). That’s all I know of tiger and adult male brown bears.
We have known cases of tigers (adult males) dying to injured inflicted by brown bears (Bromlei). And Boris the adult male tiger almost died to a brown bear.
So it’s a three year old bear. And of course a “certain poster” saw this and called it BS because reports “said it’s 18cm so it’s wrong”
This email was answered to by Milezhik, who is in-charge of the reserve and the federal branch of the wildlife refuge (animal protection). I see no reason to not trust him. Why would they lie?
The bear killed was named ‘Misha’ and was about three years old. Milezhik would know this due to monitoring the animals in the reserve.
Actually, the bear carcass was half-eaten, and I don’t see the bear’s front paw, so maybe the tiger ate it.
They measured this I’m pretty sure
ibb.co/qNrR4WM
which looks like a huge bear, but not only that, it looks like a fresh one. And the bear carcass is very small, and definitely doesn’t correspond with that footprint.
But here’s the thing tho, they said front paw so maybe they measured the bear carcass’s front paw, but they would have to flip it over.
Even in the video, everyone in the comment section is referring to the bear as ‘Misha’.
The paw size is measured incorrectly, and Kolchin said this, which is why it says 18cm.
I may be stupid or misinterpreting this but look:
These are the brown bears footprints ibb.co/WD5tyXN
There’s 5 toes.
Tiger
ibb.co/r4QxLxP
Four toes, and the declaw does not touch the ground while walking.
This would explain the 18cm. So the bear is small, yes.
Also, I found this (hopefully it loads)
www.researchgate.net/publication/311948285_Bear_footprints_and_their_use_for_monitoring_and_estimating_numbers_of_brown_bears_Ursus_arctos_L_in_Bulgaria
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Post by brobear on Jan 13, 2023 8:45:46 GMT -5
About Reply #156 above; This information could have been found by other forums, especially their admins, if they were truly seeking the truth. I'm sure that there are those who knew this but refused to post it as this information does not fit into their agenda. The agenda really should be to find and post the facts - the truth.
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Post by arctozilla on Jan 13, 2023 10:46:15 GMT -5
So it was proven bear was 3 years old. The "you know what" fucked again xd
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Post by arctozilla on Jun 18, 2023 3:54:36 GMT -5
It just says tiger can kill adult brown bears but gender not given.
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