|
|
Post by Montezuma on Jun 6, 2022 20:00:50 GMT -5
/\ Great work brobear. Despite of the fact that many opinions from animal experts favour a bear over lion or tiger, its hard to find them on internet since its need a hard work. I just was sailing through trove for some bears killing lion in pit fights and discovered these two one after another. Anyway, the thing that i want to celebrate is that we have "over 30 opinions from experts" favouring bears over bigcats. This is one of great accomplishments. We have hunters, biologists, historic writter, naturalists, animal trainers and other more. And all the bigcat forums lack the reliablity, variety and number of the opinions when compared to ours. I think most of their opinions does not cross 5, if we minus their fake or misinterpreted ones.
Anyway, i am happy to see that our opinion thread have just crossed the number of opinions i thought. Unlike bigcat forums, our all opinions prepondrate them in number, variety and reliabilty. +30 opinions are just too much and are enough to change or develop the mind of any smart animal fan.
|
|
|
|
Post by Montezuma on Jun 11, 2022 0:07:11 GMT -5
brobear, i think you should pin this thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 11, 2022 1:01:52 GMT -5
brobear , i think you should pin this thread. Alright, and add to it whenever you happen across some new material.  |
|
|
|
Post by yz on Jun 11, 2022 3:24:58 GMT -5
King Kodiak - "When accidents happen, when strange animals are placed together and a fight starts, always try to protect the weaker animal, regardless of his species. You will hear it said that a tiger can kill a lion, or vice versa. In my experience i have seen all theories exploded. Tigers have killed lions, lions have killed polar bears, a small leopard has killed a large tiger. usually a polar bear can kill any of the big cats, but i have seen a lion kill a polar bear", Louis Roth, forty years with jungle killers, page 204-205.  I don't think this one should be taken in consideration because he stated having seen a small leopard kill a huge tiger and a lion kill a polar bear. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 11, 2022 5:43:55 GMT -5
Quote: "I don't think this one should be taken in consideration because he stated having seen a small leopard kill a huge tiger and a lion kill a polar bear."
I have said before, it is not impossible for a large male Amur tiger to kill a full-grown male Ussuri brown bear in a face-to-face confrontation or in an ambush attack. However, if it was to happen, it would be a fluke. Perhaps the claws of the big cat might cut an artery in the bear's face which would cause massive bleeding. This would be a "win by accident" for the tiger. The same or similar could happen between a leopard and a lion or a tiger. As for the polar bear, those bears were poorly fed in captivity as they did not need as much protein to survive as did the big cats. Circus polar bears were once the size of small black bears.
Nevertheless; I never accept anything from old 19th century or early-to-mid 20th century newspapers as fact. Those newspapers depended heavily upon sensationalism to compete with other newspapers.
|
|
|
|
Post by yz on Jun 11, 2022 10:24:03 GMT -5
Quote: "I don't think this one should be taken in consideration because he stated having seen a small leopard kill a huge tiger and a lion kill a polar bear." I have said before, it is not impossible for a large male Amur tiger to kill a full-grown male Ussuri brown bear in a face-to-face confrontation or in an ambush attack. However, if it was to happen, it would be a fluke. Perhaps the claws of the big cat might cut an artery in the bear's face which would cause massive bleeding. This would be a "win by accident" for the tiger. The same or similar could happen between a leopard and a lion or a tiger. As for the polar bear, those bears were poorly fed in captivity as they did not need as much protein to survive as did the big cats. Circus polar bears were once the size of small black bears. Nevertheless; I never accept anything from old 19th century or early-to-mid 20th century newspapers as fact. Those newspapers depended heavily upon sensationalism to compete with other newspapers. Ok |
|
|
|
Post by Montezuma on Jun 11, 2022 22:24:44 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Montezuma on Jun 11, 2022 22:26:51 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:13:57 GMT -5
Here is the proof that simply being a scientist does not make someone a wild animal expert. Siberian Tiger vs. Grizzly Bear www.researchgate.net/post/Siberian-Tiger-vs-Grizzly-Bear Valentine John Belfiglio Texas Woman's University A male Siberian Tiger confronts a male Grizzly Bear in the Roman Arena. Neither animal can escape but they have the full area of the arena. Who wins the contest? If they fought ten times what would be the win-loss ratio? AnimalsGrizzly BearSiberian TigerKingdomAnimaliaAnimaliaFamilyUrsidaeFelidaeGenusUrsusPantheraOrderCarnivoraCarnivoraSpeciesU.arctos ssp.P.tigrisAverage Head & Body Length7 ft 8 inch7 ft 4 inchShoulder Height4 ft 1 inch3 ft 3 inchAverage Weight340 kg305 kgAreaUSA and CanadaRussiaForce4 (very good)5 (excellent)Technique5 (excellent)5 (excellent)Stamina5 (excellent)4 (very good)Intelligent4 (very good)5 (excellent)StatusEndangeredEndangeredAverage Life Span25 year18 years Winning facts for both Grizzly Bear and Siberian Tiger: Siberian Tiger is far better hunter than North American grizzly bear. Both grizzly bear and Siberian tiger paw swipes are equally powerful but tiger is more technical than grizzly. Siberian tiger canine teeth are longer and thicker than grizzly bear. Grizzly bear is slightly heavier, longer and taller than Siberian tiger. *Note: The paw-strike of a grizzly bear and a tiger are not equal.  |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:17:10 GMT -5
Continued: Ron Gazze NEE/FPL (NextEra Energy and Florida Power and Light corporations) In Northeastern Russia, these two animals encounter each other naturally and so the expected outcome is not a mystery. In head-to-head encounters on flat land (like in the gladiator fights), the bear wins the huge majority of the time. In the wild, however, what happens most frequently is that the tiger ambushes the bear by jumping from an overhangingo rocky ledge or tree branch after the bear has just ambulated past—landing with force on the spine while using claws and teeth on the neck to rapidly dispatch the bear before a stand-off can ensue, which the tiger would likley lose. The evidence comes from wildlife cameras, necropsies, and scat evaluation. *Note: Tigers only ambush adult females and adolescent brown bears. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:19:53 GMT -5
Continued:
Leonid V Vladimirov
Semenov Institute of Chemical Physics
Dear Valentine,
My own experience shows that Siberian Tigers, though they certainly are big and strong always try to avoid fighting even with humans (single scientists like me). I never saw Grizzly Bears but from that I've read about them - they are strong, cruel and aggressive. If they fight 10 times - you have to have 10 pairs of these animals which is absolutely impossible since I doubt that Russian Government will permit to deliver for this experiment 10 tigers.
*Note: True, although avoiding the real question. It's common sense that Russia will not sacrifice 10 tigers to answer a question.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:22:19 GMT -5
Continued: Subir Bandyopadhyay Botanical Survey of India www.compareanimal.com/2014/08/compare-grizzly-bear-vs-siberian-tiger.htmlConclusion given in the said website: Head to Head Fight: According to stats, facts and history, Siberian tiger always has the upper hand over grizzly bear and will win in head to head fight. *Note: The tiger always has the upper hand because he always chooses either an adolescent brown bear or an adult she-bear, nearly always at least 100 pounds less in weight than himself. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:24:35 GMT -5
Leonid V Vladimirov Semenov Institute of Chemical Physics Dear Valentine, of course, I realized that you wanted to consider an imaginary situation. My meeting with a tiger in the Ussuriysk Taiga was absolutely real. I walked with fishing rod and quite unexpectedly saw in 15-20 meters from me a huge tiger. In such situations, one just need to stand still and look straight into his eyes. It took, perhaps, about 5 minutes - to look at each other; then we got tired; turned around and parted "like ships in the sea". [Much more dangerous is wolverine. Wolverine will certainly beat your Grizzly Bear. I am sure that export-transportation of Wolverines from Russia to your country - is not restricted by Russian laws - please come and take some if you wish]. *Note: The idea that a wolverine can win a fight against a grizzly is pure fantasy. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:27:09 GMT -5
14th Aug, 2018
India Hayford
Casper College
The US is home to both wolverines and grizzly bears. I'm a big wolverine fan but in a fight between the two, I'm going to lay my bets on the grizzly. If a wolverine manages to grab a grizzly by the windpipe, it might (big might) have a chance to smother the bear. However, the grizzly is unlikely to submit tamely to being choked and those claws it sports at the ends of its toes are not just for impressing potential mates. The wolverine will be so shredded so quick that even if it manages to hang on long enough to kill the grizzly, it will quickly follow the bear into oblivion.
I suppose between the tiger and the bear, the outcome of the match would depend on the particular animals involved.
*Note: Intelligent poster, but when a full-grown male tiger meets a full-grown male grizzly, the bear will win this encounter far more often that the big cat.
|
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:28:54 GMT -5
Victor W Meyer Massey University There was a study years ago on lion vs hyaena (spotted) pack encounter outcomes in the wild. The determining factor was found to be the side which had the most collective body mass wins. Testosterone levels play a huge role in African elephant bull-on-bull encounters. The higher the testosterone, the higher the aggression and resultant dominance success. My two cents! *Note: The grizzly has body mass on his side and is always more willing to engage in a face-to-face fight. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:30:46 GMT -5
Valentine John Belfiglio Texas Woman's University Victor, Thank you for your reply. I imagine the testosterone level of both the tiger and bear would be quite high. Neither would have confronted an animal like the one they would face in Tiger vs. Bear. Your analysis is good. Make a prediction on this one. India and Leonid-thank you. *Note: What? You have never heard of the black grizzly ( Ussuri brown bear ) of the R.F.E? nor the Amur tiger? |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:32:52 GMT -5
Victor W Meyer Massey University Assuming testosterone levels are similar, I would predict the one which has the highest body mass will win, i.e. grizzly bear. But if you'd ask me who I would like to win, I'd say the tiger! *Note: Yes, the tiger is the fan-favorite with his beautiful coat and his more active documentaries. But, at least you are honest Mr. Meyer. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:37:14 GMT -5
Valentine John Belfiglio Texas Woman's University Victor, Thank you for your answer. Have you considered the speed, technical ability and intelligence of the tiger? If there is a veterinarian among our members I hope he/she will offer an opinion. In the Roman Colosseum bears were matched with male lions. The lions invariably won these matches. However, the Romans had no access to the Grizzly Bear or the outcome would be known. The difference in weight between the tiger and bear is not great. enough to overcome the assets of the tiger. *Note: Wow! So many wrongs here. You need to read, THE BEAR - History of a Fallen King - by Michel Pastoureau, Mr. Belfiglio. In the Roman Colosseum, the brown bear always killed the lion. Also, the bear not only has far greater intelligence, his physical advantages far outweigh those of the tiger. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:38:58 GMT -5
Victor W Meyer Massey University There's some gruesome and unethical video footage on the web of bear-on-tiger encounters in which tigers have been defeated multiple times. Another factor bears have over tigers is endurance. Here's a much smaller bear winning out against a tiger in the wild: In humans, body mass can be a formidable factor to contend with, even when poorly executed (I have first-hand experience of this from friendly fights against bigger guys during karate kumite in mixed weight divisions): *Note: good answer. |
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Jun 13, 2022 3:43:25 GMT -5
Valentine John Belfiglio Texas Woman's University Dear Victor and India, I checked the average weight of the Grizzly bear at 340 kg. and the Siberian Tiger at 305 Kg. I'm not certain that this weight advantage is decisive. What if the tiger goes for a quick kill by leaping at the jugular vein of the bear? *Note: A tiger always kills a bear with a bite to the base of the skull so as to break the spinal cord. The neck of a full-grown male grizzly is too thick to allow for a quick kill. |
|
