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Post by tom on Jun 25, 2021 11:41:36 GMT -5
Those old newspaper reports had one goal in mind and that was to sell newspapers. Regardless of the outcome, which in most cases in Bear vs Cat fights the Bears probably won an overwhelming majority of, the reporters job was to spice up the the real fight for lack of a better term to increase newspaper sales. A 1000+ lb bear would absolutely demolish any Lion or Tiger if he so intended to do so. a 1500 lb Goliath could feasibly toy with a Lion like a pet kitten. Alright I'm being facetious , but you know what I mean.
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Post by brobear on Jun 25, 2021 11:50:34 GMT -5
Those old newspaper reports had one goal in mind and that was to sell newspapers. Regardless of the outcome, which in most cases in Bear vs Cat fights the Bears probably won an overwhelming majority of, the reporters job was to spice up the the real fight for lack of a better term to increase newspaper sales. A 1000+ lb bear would absolutely demolish any Lion or Tiger if he so intended to do so. a 1500 lb Goliath could feasibly toy with a Lion like a pet kitten. Alright I'm being facetious , but you know what I mean. While any absolute proof remains lacking, from what was written about the California grizzly, he might have been within the size range of the Alaskan peninsula brown bears and the Kodiak bears. So, I would say you're not exaggerating.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 17:56:18 GMT -5
I comment just a bit what I think about Californian grizzly. They have been described to have been quite big. In my thoughts I put them somewhere in between Kodiak bears and interior brown bears like Yellowstone grizzlies.
They weren´t hibernating, so they didn´t need as much fat as for instance Kodiak bears and that´s why I don´t think that they could reach similar weights. But I have understood, that 1000 lbs might have been something what they have been relatively often. Which is something like a bit over 450 kg. So I would assume that weight range in between 350-450 kg has been quite realistic for those bears and occasionally for sure exceeding 500 kg. Which is, when thinking about it really, a huge bear when fat layer is not so big factor as for bears more up north.
I have understood, that Kodiak bears were considered as "giants" also back then, when there still were grizzlies in California. I can be wrong, but this is my image what comes to Californian grizzly.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 25, 2021 19:57:36 GMT -5
Since the Carlifornian grizzly bear does not hibernate as pointed out, it should probably be polar bear or Kodiak bear size without the additional fat. Just my thoughts.
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Post by tom on Jun 26, 2021 7:13:27 GMT -5
I comment just a bit what I think about Californian grizzly. They have been described to have been quite big. In my thoughts I put them somewhere in between Kodiak bears and interior brown bears like Yellowstone grizzlies. They weren´t hibernating, so they didn´t need as much fat as for instance Kodiak bears and that´s why I don´t think that they could reach similar weights. But I have understood, that 1000 lbs might have been something what they have been relatively often. Which is something like a bit over 450 kg. So I would assume that weight range in between 350-450 kg has been quite realistic for those bears and occasionally for sure exceeding 500 kg. Which is, when thinking about it really, a huge bear when fat layer is not so big factor as for bears more up north. I have understood, that Kodiak bears were considered as "giants" also back then, when there still were grizzlies in California. I can be wrong, but this is my image what comes to Californian grizzly. Roughly 25% of male Kodiak bears DO NOT hibernate for whatever reason. The temperate climate of Kodiak Island is such that they do not receive the frigid winters as does interior Alaska. The average temp in January on Kodiak Island is 27 degrees with an average low of 18 degrees. Aside from that there still must be available food on the Island to sustain them till spring. Makes me wonder if those same Bears possibly do not fatten up in early fall so they instinctively just do not go into a den.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 8:51:04 GMT -5
tomYes, not all of them hibernate, but majority do so. And those non-hibernating bears then have to eat what they can to survive. One thing which can´t be forgotten, when talking about bear sizes. What comes to Kodiak bears, it´s stated in some studies, that they have bigger skeleton than other subspecies in average. Reason for this most probably are salmons, and only some bears have access to salmon rivers and regular very "rich" diet. So when talking about Californian grizzlies, alone it, that not hibernating doesn´t mean, that they would grow as big as biggest known brown bears in Alaska and Kamchatka. Also some stuffed Californian grizzlies don´t look to be especially big and when looking at reputation of Kodiak Islands as "Islands of giant bears" etc. it comes from time, when there still were Californian grizzlies too and still California wasn´t called as "land of giant bears". They have been told to have been quite big though. So in my mind, when thinking trough, my conclusion is, that they have been somewhere in between of usual interior brown bears and Kodiak bears what comes to size. Naturally if there are some gigantic skeletons or bones of Californian grizzlies, which I have missed while searching information, I would have to reconsider. Some old hunting myths aren´t such thing, just in case someone tries to offer information about that alleged 2200 lbs Californian grizzly, which I see as gross exaggeration from some hunter, I don´t think that there is nothing more than an old story, just like the case is with "400 kg tigers in Siberia" etc.
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Post by tom on Jun 26, 2021 9:01:03 GMT -5
I'm sure brobear I could tell you much more than I about the California grizzly. I agree the they "probably" were not as large as that of the Kodiak or Alaskan coastal Bears like those of Katmai, at least on average. However, as with the Kodiak Bear there likely were very large individuals.
IMHO part of the reason they were larger on average than your Yellowstone variety Grizzly may have been access to a wider variety of food. Since some inhabitant coastal regions of California they would have had access to seals, fish and the occasional beached whale. This alone could have contributed to their larger size than the Yellowstone variety of grizzly. They were as I understand it notorious cattle/livestock killers as well which made them outlaw bears with a bounty on their head, eventually being hunted to extinction.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 9:29:38 GMT -5
I'm sure brobear I could tell you much more than I about the California grizzly. I agree the they "probably" were not as large as that of the Kodiak or Alaskan coastal Bears like those of Katmai, at least on average. However, as with the Kodiak Bear there likely were very large individuals. IMHO part of the reason they were larger on average than your Yellowstone variety Grizzly may have been access to a wider variety of food. Since some inhabitant coastal regions of California they would have had access to seals, fish and the occasional beached whale. This alone could have contributed to their larger size than the Yellowstone variety of grizzly. They were as I understand it notorious cattle/livestock killers as well which made them outlaw bears with a bounty on their head, eventually being hunted to extinction. Yes I know that since living in coastal area, they might have has at least occasionally access to certain food sources, which "inland brown bears" don´t have. If not able to catch, still able to find carcasses of many animals living in the sea, which can´t be found elsewhere. It is one reason, why I don´t think that it would be unreasonable to think, that they have been somewhat bigger. I just haven´t seen anything solid to put them side by side with Kodiak bears when looking at max size and average size. Same time it has to be remembered, that there are some other bears living also in coastal areas, but when no access to salmon, they are smaller than "Kodiak giants". Complex matter to think since there are always some variables making too direct comparisons tricky. And of course off the topic, there might be some other thread to continue this discussion.
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Post by tom on Jun 26, 2021 10:38:29 GMT -5
Were getting a little off topic however, I want to make another comment about size. Yes Salmon is full of fat and protein but not only on Kodiak are they a rich source of food for Bears. The Alaskan coastal Bears, Katmai comes to mind, there are also plenty of Salmon for the Bears to feed upon. There are undoubtedly some Giants that live there as well. The difference just might be in the genetics of the Kodiak Bear that gives him the slight edge in size. Lets face it those Bears have been isolated for 12,000 years and while there undoubtedly is some inbreeding that takes place on the island with it's approx. 3500 Bears, it seems not enough for the biologists to be concerned with it. The population is healthy and thriving and no real susceptibility to disease. There is a fairly new study (2017) that due to the warming climate on Kodiak Island that Bears are eating more and more berries and less Salmon during the Salmon spawns. phys.org/news/2017-08-kodiak-elderberries-salmon-climate.html
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Post by brobear on Jun 26, 2021 10:42:14 GMT -5
Yellowstone National Park is famous for its vast variety of natural beauty. However, while it's home to a large number of both black and grizzly bears, Yellowstone is not a lush haven of bear foodstuffs. Kodiak Island is rich in it's edible vegetation as well as the salmon. Besides diet, DNA plays a major role in brown bear size. No matter how well you feed a Yellowstone grizzly cub, he will never reach much above 1,000 pounds; if that. One thing I have never found in my searches, is a "family tree" of all the brown bear subspecies showing how they are related; which would include the polar bear. I also wonder if perhaps some brown bears carry more cave bear DNA than others.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 11:46:57 GMT -5
tomYes, in recent years Kodiak bears have had some problems with salmon. Of course evolution of thousands of years won´t turn back in a few years or decades, so Kodiak bears will stay big ones for a long time even if they would be in future with less "rich" food that they have been before. Naturally less food can lead to many other problems, so let´s hope that we people won´t kill all salmon. And yes, Alaskan coastal brown bears and Kamchatka bears have been always close rivals to Kodiak bears, because they too get same kind of nutrition. The thing is, that when comparing these "salmon bears" to other brown bears, they are bigger. What comes to Kamchatka, I don´t know how much damage hunting there has done, there was a period of time when they were hunted quite a lot if I´m not wrong and naturally trophy hunters shoot biggest ones they can find. But for instance that bear named Van from Katmai would have no troubles in Kodiak islands either, he would be a big boy there too, when looking at one good example.
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Post by tom on Jun 26, 2021 17:31:26 GMT -5
Van is a special bear. A battle scarred warrior who is now an old bear and likely is no longer the dominant bear in his territory.
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Post by brobear on Sept 18, 2021 8:32:07 GMT -5
Weight Collection: Average mature Botswana lion - 405.6 pounds. (n=22) Average mature Botswana lioness - 310.9 pounds. (n=14) Average fully grown male Yellowstone grizzly (9 years+) - 470 pounds. Average fully grown female Yellowstone grizzly (7 years+) - 304.08 pounds.
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Post by bolushi on Dec 12, 2022 13:29:17 GMT -5
This thread is kind of old, however!!! I'm curious if you guys think lion is the best terrestrial carnivore to beat a bear? I'd actually favor the lion here, it's going to stick around to fight. Unlike every other feline. Lions spend their entire lives fighting, their entire evolution is ''fight''. They don't need to avoid injuries because their pride of females provides for them. Their mane likely evolved as a combat adaptation before becoming attractive for females. Why do you guys think the lion has this big stupid mane sticking out to every prey animal on the savannah? JUST to attract females when no other animal does that? So the lion is perfectly prepared mentally for such a fight, plus it will never give up. It's up for debate whether it can win the slugfest, but the lion will tank all of the bear's offense because it truly does not give a damn. Meanwhile a yellowstone bear is an omnivorous animal who is used to bullying other animals, so it's really not prepared. All of those historical fights feature ''fighting bears'' conditioned to enjoy fighting which are way better than their wild counterparts. So ''fighting bear'' probably beats lion, but a real actual wild bear of comparable size... nah IMO.
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Post by brobear on Dec 12, 2022 14:09:32 GMT -5
A male grizzly fights as often as does the lion. In fact, probably more so. Lions fight mostly to defend territory from outside lions. These fights can be brutal, but they're not everyday events as some lion fans claim. Lions are ambush predators. They must face large prey animals out in the open sometimes; but they still attack from the rear or from one side. Lion cubs play just like all cats; they play at ambushing each other. Just watch kittens on a living room rug. Bear cubs play at face-to-face wrestling, because a face-to-face fight is in the nature of the bear. A lion comes face-to-face with a boar grizzly, equal HB length, you end-up with a dead lion. I will add; when a lion fights a lion, and a grizzly fights a grizzly, far more often a lion is killed. This is partly because a brown bear is more durable than a big cat. He can simply take more punishment.
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Post by bolushi on Dec 12, 2022 14:56:01 GMT -5
A male grizzly fights as often as does the lion. In fact, probably more so. Lions fight mostly to defend territory from outside lions. These fights can be brutal, but they're not everyday events as some lion fans claim. Lions are ambush predators. They must face large prey animals out in the open sometimes; but they still attack from the rear or from one side. Lion cubs play just like all cats; they play at ambushing each other. Just watch kittens on a living room rug. Bear cubs play at face-to-face wrestling, because a face-to-face fight is in the nature of the bear. A lion comes face-to-face with a boar grizzly, equal HB length, you end-up with a dead lion. I will add; when a lion fights a lion, and a grizzly fights a grizzly, far more often a lion is killed. This is partly because a brown bear is more durable than a big cat. He can simply take more punishment. They have little skirmishes, not a deathly war. No grizzly wants to get seriously injured. That's why they mostly pick on black bears. Plus most grizzly fights look like 2 drunk guys trying to wrestle. Yes, they're playing, but it's more important to analyze their wild behavior. Bears wrestle face to face and aren't very efficient killers. Wrestling moves aren't going to help, the lion is shorter and it will be whacking the bear very hard. The lion is killed because lions are better killers and the combination of being more efficient + less durable equates to far more deaths and harsher natural selection as a result. Did you see the Jurassic Fight Club ''cave bear vs cave lion'' video? It's horrible and inaccurate but an African lion would exhibit the behavior of that stupid cave lion minus the very convenient pausing and waiting for the bear to get up. Plus our bear here is the same size as an African lion.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Dec 12, 2022 15:05:54 GMT -5
Lions are big cats and they all act the same way. Just read "The Serengeti Lion" by George Schaller who spent 3 years observing lions every single day and you'll see they are whether gladiators nor tanky animals who stand above all other cats. They act the exact same way with the exception that they are living in groups; hunting on their own is a very rare occurence. And there is no alpha male lion who defends the territory by himself; it is strategical warfare where males and females fight against intruders with the majority being gangfights where multiple lions single out an individual and destroy it as quickly as possible in order to have a numbers advantage. So yeah, a prime 750lbs best-of-the-best Yellowstone grizzly would make short work of any lion that would be stupid enough to begin a fight.
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Post by bolushi on Dec 12, 2022 15:19:10 GMT -5
Lions are big cats and they all act the same way. Just read "The Serengeti Lion" by George Schaller who spent 3 years observing lions every single day and you'll see they are whether gladiators nor tanky animals who stand above all other cats. They act the exact same way with the exception that they are living in groups; hunting on their own is a very rare occurence. And there is no alpha male lion who defends the territory by himself; it is strategical warfare where males and females fight against intruders with the majority being gangfights where multiple lions single out an individual and destroy it as quickly as possible in order to have a numbers advantage. So yeah, a prime 750lbs best-of-the-best Yellowstone grizzly would make short work of any lion that would be stupid enough to begin a fight. That is demonstrably untrue if you've watched lion fights. Or lion v tiger fights where the tiger jumps ship and the lion keeps going.
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Post by brobear on Dec 12, 2022 23:40:54 GMT -5
Male brown bears fight each other fiercely. This includes wrestling along with an occasional paw-strike that just might have enough force to break a lion's neck. They bite and they use their claws. But a grizzly has far greater girth of limbs, neck, and torso than does a lion. He has far greater durability. How much greater girth? At HB length-parity, a brown bear is upwards to 200 pounds heavier than a lion or a tiger. Brown bears are often said to be inefficient killers. This is possibly true. But, a brown bear does not concern himself whether or not his prey or opponent is dead, just so long as it is disabled. He will sometimes devour his prey while it is still alive. When the fight is over, the bear will either walk away, leaving a lion behind with broken bones and bleeding lacerations, or else he will eat the crippled lion. According to Michel Pastoureau, a professor of European history, who sifted through all of the existing records from the ancient Roman games, quote; "Although they sometimes staged battles in the arena between bears and bulls ( the bears almost always won ), they especially liked to see wild animals brought from Africa or Asia fight one another or against men. Sometimes, however, curiosity made them wonder about the strength of a bear or a bull compared to that of an animal from afar, and so there were battles between bears and lions, bears and panthers, bulls and lions, bulls and an elephant, and even a bear and a rhinoceros. Although bulls, fighting alone or in a group, seem never to have been victorious, a bear always won in single combat against a lion or against several panthers."
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Post by Montezuma on Jan 7, 2023 18:19:47 GMT -5
In my guess, a mature male yellowstone grizzly bear takes a mature african lion 70%. Since, as clear, the bear is a bit heavier, more endure, more strong and robust and a plantigrade structure, a very good fighting body structure. Lions have fierce fights for territories and mates with each other while grizzlies too have fights of mates (most), territory (rare) but also on foods and higher gathering status (mostly during salmon run).
We have Micheal Pasteroau explaining that the brown bears always defeated lions in roman arenas; further accetuated by Wayne Lynch. Lions been beaten by bears in Californian pit fights, also have authentic sources as we earlier showed. So in overall analysis, a yellowstone Grizzly bear overpowers African lion.
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