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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 21:42:18 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/ The claim that an adult grizzly bear can decapitate a moose with one swipe of its paw is an established fact. The first reported event took place in Alaska in 1895 by a Russian miner who was hiking through the wilderness. According to his account, he witnessed a moose drinking from a stream when a Grizzly bear approached from the other side. Mooses are very territorial, and they are especially known to attack anything they perceive to be a threat to their water source. The moose charged full speed across the stream, and just as it neared the bear, the bear stood up and with a quick motion swiped the moose in the side of the face. The mooses head became decapitated and flew a distance of fifteen to twenty feet. ...and quick as a spark on a fire the grizzly bear stood up and swatted the moose in the face. Why it was if you or I would swat a fly, but the impact seemed to me as loud as a gunshot. And then I was absolutely flabbergasted and discombobulated to see, a great upsplash of blood, and the mooses head detatched from the body and landed not three feet from where I was hidden, its eyes staring right at me. The bear sat down immediately and began drinking from the stream as if nothing had happened, as if it were a regular occurance to go decapitating the head of a moose. Never in my life will I forget the power of the grizzly bear... The report was met by skepticism until noted American biologist Dr. Jacob MacDonaldson observed a similar event in the spring of 1954. MacDonaldson was observing the movements of a Grizzly bear when a moose walked into the same space. The grizzly bear perceived the moose to be a threat to the cubs, and roared to scare it off. But the moose began to graze. The bear then charged the moose, but again the moose did not move. The bear then lumbered over to the moose, and with a powerful swipe of its paw, decapitated the moose. Dr. MacDonaldson later retreived the moose head an autopsy found damage consistent with that of decapitation by impact. Later studies contribute the phenomenon to both the relative weakness of a mooses upper neck and the power of a grizzly bears arm. Although a grizzly bear is very powerful, it does not have the strength to decapitate most creatures larger than a man. A moose however is peculiar in the structure of its upperneck, which is weak, and any force that puts a significant and sudden pressure on the weakest point of the neck will inevitably cause decapitation. Since 1895, there have been 15 reported cases of Moose decapitation by Grizzly, and most scientists theorize it is a natural, albeit somewhat rare, event. Well, that wasn't expected. ahahaha
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2020 21:49:23 GMT -5
Still regarding humans, there are exceptionally tough men who cannot easily be knocked out by other men. Yeah.....me.
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Post by King Kodiak on May 15, 2020 10:15:44 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jun 10, 2020 6:08:35 GMT -5
I just added one to the list. So many things to consider:
#1 - Numbers. This is a huge advantage. #2 - Experience. This is a great advantage if coupled with learning ability. #3 - Size and Weight. #4 - Strength and Leverage. #5 - Speed and Quick Reflexes. #6 - Agility. #7 - Natural Weapons. #8 - Natural Armor. #9 - Grappling Ability. #10 - Intelligence ( ability to adjust fighting technique according to adversary ). #11 - Bipedal Ability. #12 - Aggressiveness. #13 - Bite Force. #14 - Stamina. #15 - Endurance to Pain and Injury. #16 - Paw-Strike. #17 - Durability / Girth - thick build ( better able to withstand kicks, paw-strikes, etc. ). #18 - "Bulldog Build" - Among the multitude of dog breeds, the fighting dogs ( mostly bulldog breeds - Molossians ) have a square-build ( not long or tall ) slightly bowed legs, and in-turned feet. These attributes of the bulldog breeds can also be found in the grizzly. These qualities provide excellent grappling ability. #19 - Plantigrade Posture. #20 - Stability - The bear is broader in structure; wider space between his left feet and his right feet. Consider two tables. One table is six feet long and three feet wide. The other table is six feet long and one foot wide. Which table will topple over the easiest?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 12:54:45 GMT -5
That's hard to quantify. Let's look at boxers. A smart boxer can lure an inexperienced boxer into punching himself out, remember Muhammed Ali's "rope-a-dope"? With animals I think it's more of what do I stand to gain or Lose by fighting. If your starving than there is less to lose by fighting because if you don't eat you don't survive anyway. If hunger is not the ultimate decision maker sometimes avoiding a fight is the intelligent thing to do. IMO intelligence will only take you so far. Personally, I think size and or aggression will play a bigger part in the outcome. excellent analysis.
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Post by brobear on Jun 12, 2020 15:58:16 GMT -5
That's hard to quantify. Let's look at boxers. A smart boxer can lure an inexperienced boxer into punching himself out, remember Muhammed Ali's "rope-a-dope"? With animals I think it's more of what do I stand to gain or Lose by fighting. If your starving than there is less to lose by fighting because if you don't eat you don't survive anyway. If hunger is not the ultimate decision maker sometimes avoiding a fight is the intelligent thing to do. IMO intelligence will only take you so far. Personally, I think size and or aggression will play a bigger part in the outcome. excellent analysis. Intelligence in a fight. This was once highly debated in the old "AVA" forum. My take; intelligence plays a role, but some advantages play a bigger role. Like Tom said, size, weight, strength, and have the aggression to keep pushing forward. But intelligence matters. A smart fighter might notice a particular weakness in his opponent. Or he might see that his opponent is getting the better of him, and change his strategy. In a nut-shell; brains and brawn is better than brawn alone.
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Post by brobear on Jun 12, 2020 16:08:13 GMT -5
Still regarding humans, there are exceptionally tough men who cannot easily be knocked out by other men. Yeah.....me.Starting in the 5th grade, I went to an elementary school where, when two boys got into a fight, the teachers simply watched from a distance. They never interfered. I suppose they figured this was a learning experience. Kids will be more careful when they know that no one will come to their rescue. So, being the new kid; I took some licks. Three years in the marines; damn those guys fight a bunch. In school ( from 5th on up ) and then the marines, I found myself in more fights than I can count. I won a few and lost a bunch. Important thing to me is; I never retreated. But I was never the BEAR.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 12, 2020 23:38:44 GMT -5
Dont doubt it brobear. You are a true marine. I had some fights myself as i was part of a soccer hooligan group.
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Post by brobear on Jun 28, 2020 4:49:30 GMT -5
Advantage list from Reply #123. My view of fight advantages in a face-off concerning Lion, Tiger, and Brown Bear. 1- Numbers - Lion. ( the greatest advantage of all ). 2- Experience - Lion and Bear. 3- Size and Weight - Bear. 4- Strength and Leverage - Bear. 5- Speed and Quick Reflexes - Lion and Tiger. 6- Agility - Lion and Tiger. 7- Natural Weapons - ( Jaws and Teeth ) Lion and Tiger. ( Claws ) Bear. 8- Natural Armor - Bear. 9- Grappling Ability - Bear. 10- Intelligence - Bear. 11- Bipedal Ability - Bear. 12- Aggressiveness - Lion. 13- Bite Force - Lion and Tiger. 14- Stamina - Bear. 15- Endurance to Pain and Injury - Lion and Bear. 16- Paw-Strike - Bear. 17- Durability / Girth - Bear. 18- "Bulldog Build" - Bear. 19- Plantigrade Posture - Bear. 20- Stability - Bear. *Bear - 15 out of 20.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 28, 2020 6:40:57 GMT -5
I hade given this one as "relative", because bears, lions, and tigers can all be aggressive in a life or death situation. But could be the lion yes.
Well, mostly. But remember that sun bears and panda bears have stronger bite force than lions and tigers. Also, brown bears with a 200 + lb weight advantage have a higher bite force than lions and tigers.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jun 28, 2020 9:25:21 GMT -5
Advantage list from Reply #123. My view of fight advantages in a face-off concerning Lion, Tiger, and Brown Bear. 1- Numbers - Lion. ( the greatest advantage of all ). 2- Experience - Lion and Bear. 3- Size and Weight - Bear. 4- Strength and Leverage - Bear. 5- Speed and Quick Reflexes - Lion and Tiger ( marginal ). 6- Agility - Lion and Tiger. 7- Natural Weapons - ( Jaws and Teeth ) Lion and Tiger. ( Claws ) Bear. 8- Natural Armor - Bear. 9- Grappling Ability - Bear. 10- Intelligence - Bear. 11- Bipedal Ability - Bear. 12- Aggressiveness - Lion ( marginal ). 13- Bite Force - Lion and Tiger ( at weight parity ). 14- Stamina - Bear. 15- Endurance to Pain and Injury - Lion and Bear. 16- Paw-Strike - Bear. 17- Durability / Girth - Bear. 18- "Bulldog Build" - Bear. 19- Plantigrade Posture - Bear. 20- Stability - Bear. *Bear - 15 out of 20. Regarding aggressiveness, I think a barren ground grizzly or sloth bear should take it or at least be up there with the lion. Polar bears also fight to death during mating season. Female brown bears and polar bear defend their cubs fearlessly.
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Post by brobear on Jun 29, 2020 9:06:38 GMT -5
Quote: Regarding aggressiveness, I think a barren ground grizzly or sloth bear should take it or at least be up there with the lion. *I agree here with the barren ground grizzly and perhaps with the Tibetan blue bear. What is commonly perceived as aggression from the sloth bear is ( IMO ) merely the fact that where he lives there is not always a tree standing next to him. He has learned that his chances of surviving a tiger confrontation are better if he can courageously stand his ground rather than to panic and run. But in truth; a fight is the last thing that the sloth bear really wants.
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Post by brobear on Jun 29, 2020 9:42:54 GMT -5
We have all read the reports of bear vs big cats; both is the wild and those old tales of captive animal fights. We have seen a few videos of bears fighting against big cats. We have read enough and we have witnessed enough to know that the bear is the Achilles' heel of the big cats. Contrary to that which was once repeated over-and-over within animal face-off forums, quote: "a bear needs a significant size advantage to defeat a big cat", well now; this is false. It is in fact the big cat who needs the size and weight advantage if he is to defeat a bear. Tigers have proven to have a difficult time when fighting with sloth bears smaller than themselves. Every species of Asiatic bear, with the exception of brown bears, have a distinct easy-to-spot V on their chests. This is a signal - a stop sign - to let the tiger know that the bear can see him. Even with smaller bears, it is very rare for a tiger to attempt a face-to-face fight with a bear. Now consider that among the eight species of bears, the sloth bear is pound-for-pound the least muscular. Now consider that the brown bear is pound-for-pound the most muscular of the eight species of bears. So, why do cats have such a difficult time when confronted by a bear? Cats are lean, muscular, predators designed for the hunt. Sleek, fast, stealthy, and with an agility making a cat a contortionist. A bear is a tank. Broad, heavily muscled, and built for work. A bear is an opportunistic "jack-of-all-trades" who might spend a day tearing into dead trees, stumps, over-turning huge rocks, or digging for burrowing rodents. Comparing a cat to a bear is rather like comparing a sports car to a truck.
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Post by tom on Jun 29, 2020 12:14:37 GMT -5
So, why do cats have such a difficult time when confronted by a bear? We'll when you say cats I'm assuming you mean all big cats that share the same environment with Bears. In North America that would mean the Cougar. IMO they instinctively know the Bear is a dangerous adversary and could inflict serious injury or death if confronted. As a whole I think cats are more cautious in this respect than Bears. Bears IMO more times than not seem to throw caution to the wind. Bears if wanting to displace a cat from his kill just barge right in without even thinking about what the cat will or won't do, he just wants to eat.... Tigers or cougars really don't want anything to do with a Bear that is as large or larger than themselves because they just seem to know it wouldn't end well for them if they did. Personally, I think most big cats have a high degree of self preservation built in. You might be able to make somewhat of an exception for Lions being probably the boldest of all the large Cats, but push come to shove a healthy lion knows when to pick his battles as well.
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Post by brobear on Jun 29, 2020 16:43:57 GMT -5
On reliable records, confirmed reports, we have just one account of a cougar, which had been displaced from her kill, return to that same carcass 24 hours later, ambush, and kill the female black bear which had previously displaced her. This black bear turned out to be a sub-adult ( meaning from 3 to 4 years old ). We have one verified report of a leopard fighting with a sloth bear - both full-grown males. Exact circumstances unknown, but the bear killed the leopard, but died soon after from injuries. These were a Sri Lankan sloth bear and a Sri Lankan leopard. These bears are basically sun-bear sized and the leopards jaguar sized. We have just one report of a Sumatran tiger who ambushed a sun bear and the two managed to kill each other. We have two confirmed reports ( both caught on video ) of a Male Bengal tiger vs female sloth. Tiger kills bear in one while bear manages to fight-off tiger in the other. We have just one confirmed report of a jaguar ambushing and killing a black bear. *In ambush attacks on small bears, tigers and jaguars seem to do quite well. In face-off events, even a big male tiger apparently has trouble with bears half or maybe a third their own weight. Imagine then, a brown bear - pound-for-pound the strongest of living bears - with a 200-pound weight advantage over the tiger.
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Post by brobear on Jun 29, 2020 17:21:34 GMT -5
Ligers and Tigons - lion/tiger hybrids. I have seen picture showing off their abnormal / unnatural size but I have yet to see any videos showing off their physical speed and agility - necessary for a big cat - ambush predator. ( IMO ) a Kodiak bear would destroy a liger in a face-off.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jun 29, 2020 17:34:56 GMT -5
I could have not said it better myself. Liger stands zero chance. This historic brown bear subspecies wins.
URSUS ARCTOS MIDDENDORFFI The best of the land.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 1, 2020 23:26:09 GMT -5
There are also no wild ligers. These hybrids tire easily and are probably way more docile than their parents.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 2, 2020 8:52:26 GMT -5
There are also no wild ligers. These hybrids tire easily and are probably way more docile than their parents. A Grolar bear is healthy and would decimate a Liger.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 2, 2020 9:10:30 GMT -5
There are also no wild ligers. These hybrids tire easily and are probably way more docile than their parents. A Grolar bear is healthy and would decimate a Liger.Agreed. I was only talking about the liger in my earlier post (reply 137). Grolar bears are wild and healthy hybrids.
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