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Post by tom on Oct 8, 2019 16:23:12 GMT -5
Hey, lions habitually hunt real dangerous prey, so sometimes, for sure, they die trying. But mostly, they kill and eat what they grapple down as prey, (including bears, when available). A big male grizzly bear can actually defend itself better from a lion than a cape buffalo can. Once the lion gets the cape buffalo's throat or gets on top, there is little the cape buffalo can do if the lion plays its cards right. A grizzly bear has flexible forearms than enables it to get at the lion even if the big cat manages to get on its back. True, however, it's rare that a single Lion would attempt a kill or even stand and defend itself against a Buffalo unless it was a young one. I would venture to guess that a single male Lion against even a cow Buffalo let alone a bull would be successful less than 10% of the time. Too big too powerful for one Lion that's why when hunting large dangerous game it's normally the whole pride that gets involved. Controlling the back end while another goes for the throat.
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Post by tom on Oct 8, 2019 16:31:09 GMT -5
A Grizzly defending itself from a Cape Buffalo would be equivalent to defending itself from the American Bison. Both would be a monumental task and unless it was an unusually large Grizzly, my assumption is the Grizzly would not attempt to engage due to the risk of serious injury which could mean the inability to hunt or worse death.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 8, 2019 17:59:30 GMT -5
A big male grizzly bear can actually defend itself better from a lion than a cape buffalo can. Once the lion gets the cape buffalo's throat or gets on top, there is little the cape buffalo can do if the lion plays its cards right. A grizzly bear has flexible forearms than enables it to get at the lion even if the big cat manages to get on its back. If i am understanding right, did Gort say that lions hunt bears when available? That exactly what he said. However, cave bears have killed cave lions that entered into their caves and seeing that male cave bears are not taken, I doubt that they are as social as African lions. Also Atlas bears do not seem to be a regular prey item for Barbary lions. Gort's posting style is similar to our former great guest Kamkatcha - a clever spammer that has nothing positive to say about bears.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 9, 2019 5:15:58 GMT -5
If i am understanding right, did Gort say that lions hunt bears when available? That exactly what he said. However, cave bears have killed cave lions that entered into their caves and seeing that male cave bears are not taken, I doubt that they are as social as African lions. Also Atlas bears do not seem to be a regular prey item for Barbary lions. Gort's posting style is similar to our former great guest Kamkatcha - a clever spammer that has nothing positive to say about bears. Yeah but Gort wasnt talking about cave bears or Atlas bears, he just said "lions hunt bears when available", how old is this guy? Cave lions attacked cave bears while hibernating and still got killed. And we have never seen interactions between the Atlas bears and lions, so we just dont know. Although a pride of lions would have been able to hunt and kill any bear, even the largest.
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Post by BruteStrength on Oct 19, 2019 22:15:29 GMT -5
When it come to brown bear fighting style, do you you think all brown bears fight the same or are the slight different fighting styles between brown bear subspecies? Like for example Im sure a kodiak bear have a slight different fighting style from a Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 19, 2019 23:19:21 GMT -5
When it come to brown bear fighting style, do you you think all brown bears fight the same or are the slight different fighting styles between brown bear subspecies? Like for example Im sure a kodiak bear have a slight different fighting style from a Ussuri brown bear. This is just my own personal opinion from all i have seen, this is by no means an established fact. But i think all species of bears fight basically the same way, more so the subspecies, they are basically the same animal. All bears, the very first thing they do is stand on hing legs to give the opponent fear, then if a fight happens, all bears will try to wrestle and grapple and take the opponent to the ground. Then kill the enemy from there by rapid biting in many places, or by crushing the ribs or a neck bite. This is especially true in all brown bear subspecies. But there are videos of even sun bears (the smallest species of bear) grappling with each other. So this tells me that from the largest species to the smallest, they all use the same fighting technique.
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Post by BruteStrength on Oct 20, 2019 1:23:30 GMT -5
I agree with you Kodiak. The way you break it down I agree with you that brown bears should fight very similar because they are the same species.
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Post by brobear on Oct 26, 2019 2:50:52 GMT -5
Professional fighters ( scientific martial arts style ) have on several occasions commented that bears use fighting techniques similar to their own fighting skills. Of all land-based mammals, no animal the size of a bear is as strong. No bear is pound-for-pound as strong as a grizzly. Add to this fact that the bear is listed among the smartest creatures on earth after man-kind. See: Bear Intelligence. IMO - Brains and Brawn is better than Brawn alone.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 4, 2020 10:26:06 GMT -5
Bear attackāA unique fatality in Finland Fatalities due to animal bites, the vast majority of which are associated with dogs and big cats, are relatively uncommon and rarely described in the literature. Especially rare are fatal bear attacks on humans. We herein present a forensic investigation of a fatal assault, involving numerous bites on a 42-year-old man in Finland by an European brown bear (Ursus arctos arctos). Certain conditions are known to increase the risk of a bear attack; a sudden encoun- ter, a food-conditioned bear and proximity to the bear's den (15) as well as the presence of cubs, a wounded bear and the presence of dogs (16). According to the cases reviewed, the brown bear tends to attack the central body regions, including the head by means of biting, hitting, and clawing (5)(6)(7). This is in keeping with previous observations made in which char- acteristic locations for bear bite wounds have been shown to be the face, scalp, and neck (15). ... www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/publication/5450613_Bear_attack-A_unique_fatality_in_Finland/amp
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Post by brobear on Apr 16, 2020 1:52:18 GMT -5
From "The Essential Grizzly" by Doug and Andrea Peacock: The big grizzly stalks along the treeline, Shadowing the smallest of the three elk, still quite a formidable animal with a five-pointed rack. Mother bear steps clear of the pine forest and advances toward the ungulate. The elk ignores the bear until she stands fifty feet away. He makes no attempt to flee. The bull paws the dirt with his front hooves and turns to face the grizzly - the sharp tines of its rack lowered. They stand facing each other for the good part of a minute, the cubs stationary behind their mother. The sow charges the bull, who stands his ground and even takes a small step forward. At the instant before contact, the grizzly rises on her hind legs and reaches over the head and antlers of the elk. She grabs his neck with her jaws. The grizzly has all her weight on the forequarters of the elk; he shakes his head and circles, churning the ground with his hooves. The bear hangs on with her claws and bites the bull on the face and ears. They go down kicking, and the ungulate almost breaks free. The sow bites again and this time clenches the spinal column with her teeth. The bear picks up the bull by the neck and shakes it. The bull shudders then lies still.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 16, 2020 4:08:14 GMT -5
Reply #130, thats awesome brobear, did Doug Peacock actually witnessed that? The bear bites the bull on the face and ears, that coincides with the study in reply #129.
"the brown bear tends to attack the central body regions, including the head by means of biting, hitting, and clawing"
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Post by brobear on Apr 16, 2020 5:04:59 GMT -5
Reply #130, thats awesome brobear, did Doug Peacock actually witnessed that? The bear bites the bull on the face and ears, that coincides with the study in reply #129.
"the brown bear tends to attack the central body regions, including the head by means of biting, hitting, and clawing" Yes he did. As I have been saying for years now, a grizzly is not shy about a face-to-face battle with an adversary. I have recently posted more from Doug Peacock in the Brown Bears section... "Man Meets Grizzly".
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Post by King Kodiak on Sept 3, 2020 21:37:12 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Sept 4, 2020 0:01:36 GMT -5
One of the favorite things often told by big cat fanboys; "big cats are accomplished killers; bears are not." The thing they don't understand ( or are in denial of ) is the fact that once the adversary is defeated and the fight taken out of him, the bear just flat don't give a flying cow patty whether his adversary is dead or alive. But, at this point, the disabled victim is badly injured. If the adversary was a big cat, then that cat has multiple broken bones and lacerations. He is left unable to hunt.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 4, 2020 1:57:43 GMT -5
Martial eagles are more accomplish killers than Lappet faced vultures yet the latter robs them without much resistance. Same goes for Eurasian Black vulture and golden eagle.
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Post by brobear on Oct 7, 2020 15:40:15 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ .... Carnivorous and Omnivores Animals, Excluding Felids .... Bears Canines and Claws .... post #26 by Tigerluver. Tigerluver explains how a grizzly can take very rapid bite-after-bite of a large prey animal or adversary. Each bite removes a chunk of the victim. It is a bloody gory method of killing. Not every brown bear kills by the same method; or perhaps the method depends upon the prey or adversary.
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Post by brobear on Oct 7, 2020 15:43:58 GMT -5
By Ursus arctos middendorffi ( the poster )... June 20th, 2011.... Animals vs Animals - Yuku. Finally, the requested conclusion. For ease of comparison I will assume in this conclusion that they are of roughly equal size, and that both animals are from midsummer (rather than using a very fat bear from fall, for example). A brown bear would be much better able to gain dominant positions and exhaust the other animal over time. This is the general strategy they do when fighting each other (with the end result typically being a tired bear backing down or outright fleeing) as well as often when killing other animals; if unable to cause serious injuries they seem to simply exhaust it through grappling to the point it is no longer able to defend itself, and then slowly kill it. This can be seen in a few clips on youtube, such as "grizzly eats moose alive", "brown bear predation of wild boar (Russia)", and it looks like this was the case in "bear killing bear", a slideshow of a bear killing another one of similar size-note that it moved itself to the back of the other animal where it couldn't effectively fight back. Similar to what you see in this video. In these cases a bear was able to keep itself relatively free of injuries while exhausting the other animal to the point that it could be safely (albeit ineffectively) killed through their great wrestling/grappling ability. Not every brown bear kills by the same method; or perhaps the method depends upon the prey or adversary.
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Post by brobear on Nov 2, 2020 0:57:47 GMT -5
Here is the catch 22 should a tiger ambush a full-grown male brown bear: Typical full-grown male Amur tiger - 420 pounds / Typical full-grown male Ussuri brown bear 650 pounds. A tiger has very precise methods for killing large herbivores which have a nearly perfect success rate. However, a tiger's method for killing a bear only works on bears smaller than himself.
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Post by brobear on Dec 3, 2020 3:05:24 GMT -5
When a bear fights with an adversary or attacks a large prey animal, the bear has no instinctive preset method of killing. In fact, the bear is completely unconcerned as to whether or not his adversary is dead or alive as a result. For this reason, there have been many reports of human survivors of bear attacks. Hugh Glass, as seen on the movie, "The Revenant ( 2015 ) is a prime example. Also, it is not uncommon for a bear to feast upon an ungulate while its still alive. But one thing is clear, the victim of a bear mauling is always left with broken bones and bleeding.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 5, 2021 19:51:09 GMT -5
Large carnivore attacks on hominins during the Pleistocene: A forensic approach with a Neanderthal example
Abstract
Interaction between hominins and carnivores has been common and constant through human evolution andgenerated mutual pressures similar to those present in world-wide modern human-carnivore conflicts. This current interac-tion is sometimes violent and can be reflected in permanent skeletalpathologies and other bonemodifications.Inthe pres-ent paper, we carry out a survey of 124 forensic cases of dangerous human-carnivore encounters. The objective is toinfer direct hominin carnivore confrontation during thePleistocene, which is important to understand behavioralchanges during human evolution. In addition, the case of Neanderthals is analyzed in order to find evidence of past attacks using forensic observations. The results obtained posethat Neanderthals could potentially have been involved indangerous encounters during the Pleistocene, validating our methodology to approach past attacks from a forensic perspective.
www.academia.edu/12436456/Large_carnivore_attacks_on_hominins_during_the_Pleistocene_A_forensic_approach_with_a_Neanderthal_example
So in attacking humans, Felines mostly go for the neck and head area while Ursids mostly go for the head and upper limb area.
Also, very important:
In general, carnivore attacks result in minor or major injuries, and only a relatively small proportion are fatal (Agarwalet al. 2011). However, this depends on the type of carnivorespecies. In the case of felines, the average number of attacksthat lead to death is extremely high when compared to that of bears (Nabi et al. 2009a). This is probably because most casesrelated to felines are predatory (Neto et al. 2011), in contrast with bear attacks, which may often be related to defensiveattacks (of their cubs or their territory) (Ambarli and Bilgin2008). This is also something that can be inferred in the way ahumanisattacked. Ursids usuallyattacktheirvictimsfromthefront and as a dissuasive action (increased by a defensive reaction of the person, understood by the bear as afighting response) (French 2001). Felines, on the other hand, tend to attack the victim/prey from the rear or over the shoulder (Chapenoire et al. 2001). The caseof canids can be also classified as predatory or defensive attacks, and their attack pattern is similar to that of felines in the sense that they target the neck region,shaking the prey into submission (Bury et al. 2012). Nevertheless, the main difference is that canids usuallyattack in packs and therefore other pack members wouldhelp bring down the victim by biting the upper andlower extremities.
"Ursids usually attack their victims from the FRONT and as a dissuasive action (increased by a defensive reaction of the person, understod by the bear as a fighting response) (French 2001). Felines, on the other hand, tend to attack the victim/prey rom the REAR or over the shoulder (Chapenoire et al. 2001)
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