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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 14, 2019 8:10:19 GMT -5
Ok well let me ask you guys this. Who would win a fight. A prime Mike Tyson vs a sumo Wrestler? I lean more towards the sumo. In a boxing match, Tyson would win. In an all out fight with every fighting style included, the sumo wins.
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Post by brobear on Mar 14, 2019 8:54:37 GMT -5
Ok well let me ask you guys this. Who would win a fight. A prime Mike Tyson vs a sumo Wrestler? I lean more towards the sumo. In a boxing match, Tyson would win. In an all out fight with every fighting style included, the sumo wins.Well, since both boxing and Sumo are sports, yes, they would each win at their own sport. As for a no-hold's barred bare-handed fight, I would wager on the Sumo wrestler. I will edit and add: Sumo fighting style advantages are a combination of weight - strength - and technique. Sound familiar?
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Post by BruteStrength on Mar 15, 2019 9:10:21 GMT -5
Agree in a fight with no rules the sumo should take this.
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Post by brobear on Mar 21, 2019 5:02:55 GMT -5
Fact: Bears begin learning wrestling skills from early cubhood.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 21, 2019 9:57:39 GMT -5
IF THE TIGER’S FIRST ATTACK SUCCEEDS AND THE BEAR FALLS DOWN, THE TIGER MASTERS HIS FOE AND KILLS HIM, IF NOT, THE BEAR SLOWLY BUT SURELY, CONQUERS THE TIGER AND KILLS IT.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2019 10:19:02 GMT -5
Fact: Bears begin learning wrestling skills from early cubhood. This is why bears are the best grapplers and brawlers in the animal kingdom.
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2019 6:00:34 GMT -5
I've been doing some thinking on ungulate survival skills. Most ungulates are armed with some form of horns or antlers. All are armed with hoofs. Big cats learned several million years ago that the safest way to ambush an ungulate is from the side or rear. To start with, the cats learned that their best chance of catching a fast-running hoofed animal is by a surprise ambush attack. After several million years of doing this, the ambush skill became a habit imprinted into his DNA. Cats are ambush predators. The horns or antlers make any head-on attack dangerous, even for a 500 pound tiger going head-to-head with a 200 pound buck deer. Consider all of those sharp pointed antlers coming at you at 50 mph backed up with a 200 pound body. I read about such an incident, and this is in no way an insult towards the tiger. Big cats, wolves, and hyenas never purposely choose going head-to-head with any prey animal. In uncommon circumstances, however, they sometimes find themselves in such an awkward situation. The grizzly is the only predator that I have witnessed ( on video ) purposely placing himself face-to-face with a horned or antlered opponent. But I'm sure that far more often even a grizzly will ambush from the rear or side of a large ungulate. Note too that a rear attack can also be dangerous; even fatal. The back hoofs of a large ungulate can be dangerous. Consider the horse. Teddy Roosevelt was stated that there are two varieties of horses; those that know how to fight and those who do not. In the old West, grizzlies killed many horses, both domestic and feral mustangs. Every now and again, a mighty stallion would kill the bear. A horse can deliver a powerful devastating kick with any of his four hoofs. Add to this that a horse does not simply kick blindly, but he can be deadly accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 6:10:51 GMT -5
Male polar bears fighting.
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Post by tom on Jul 20, 2019 12:10:58 GMT -5
I was watching a vid of two male Polar Bears fighting and couldn't help but notice a different style than what I've seen with Brown Bears. The white Bears don't seem to grapple as much, not a lot of continuous contact and a lot of shoving and paw swipes. Maybe this was just a small sampling, but I did notice the difference. The Brown bears had very few paw swipes or punches if you will and were much more interested in trying to use leaverage to throw their opponent to the ground to get the upper hand.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 12:39:05 GMT -5
I was watching a vid of two male Polar Bears fighting and couldn't help but notice a different style than what I've seen with Brown Bears. The white Bears don't seem to grapple as much, not a lot of continuous contact and a lot of shoving and paw swipes. Maybe this was just a small sampling, but I did notice the difference. The Brown bears had very few paw swipes or punches if you will and were much more interested in trying to use leaverage to throw their opponent to the ground to get the upper hand. yea I can see the difference. Polar bears are more like a boxer of sorts and will “punch” the other bear and shove them off. While brown bears are a more wrestler sort of style where they use their strength, and balance to throw each other around and then on the ground it’s like mauling and just tearing apart the other bear. Not to mention both bears bite differently too the brown bear will bite and hold, while the polar bear does more of a quick bite and let go.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 20, 2019 13:04:41 GMT -5
The thing is polar bears have the pure “hunter” mentality, this means they want to kill their prey as fast as possible. And you can even see that when they fight each other. Brown bears dont have the hunter mentality, they have more like a “fighter” mentality, meaning they dont care how long they take to kill their opponent. Predation usually takes a while, also bear vs bear takes a while. Polar bears use the striking method to kill as fast as possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 15:32:59 GMT -5
The thing is polar bears have the pure “hunter” mentality, this means they want to kill their prey as fast as possible. And you can even see that when they fight each other. Brown bears dont have the hunter mentality, they have more like a “fighter” mentality, meaning they dont care how long they take to kill their opponent. Predation usually takes a while, also bear vs bear takes a while. Polar bears use the striking method to kill as fast as possible.
yea hunter mentality is weird. It seems like it’d be a better mentality than fighting but if the hunter won’t typically want to fight and as you said they want to have fights end quickly so there is minimum injury. I think the polar bears fight style is effective and good but it’s just not as good as the brown bears style where u win through injuring and making your opponent quit.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 20, 2019 16:13:05 GMT -5
Oh yeah definitely, pure hunters like polar bears want to just kill, ending the fight as soon as possible, same way tigers do. That is why in this forum, we all agree that at weight parity, a brown bear would defeat a polar bear more often than not. Better face to face fighting technique, front limbs more powerful due to the large shoulder hump, larger skull, just all around more robust built.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 16:23:47 GMT -5
Oh yeah definitely, pure hunters like polar bears want to just kill, ending the fight as soon as possible, same way tigers do. That is why in this forum, we all agree that at weight parity, a brown bear would defeat a polar bear more often than not. Better face to face fighting technique, front limbs more powerful due to the large shoulder hump, larger skull, just all around more robust built.
yea I agree. Is it tru that polar bears have denser bones than brown bears
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 20, 2019 18:41:11 GMT -5
Yeah, at the Shaggygod forum, in this thread, someone posted a chart showing that polar bears have more humerus ap than brown bears, but brown bears have more humerus ml. Maybe Verdugo can shed some light on this since he is the most knowledgeable member here on morphology.
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/987/limb-bone-data-extant-bears
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 23:45:08 GMT -5
I cannot tell if the Polar bears in the video were actually fighting seriously or they were just sparring. Yeah, at the Shaggygod forum, in this thread, someone posted a chart showing that polar bears have more humerus ap than brown bears, but brown bears have more humerus ml. Maybe Verdugo can shed some light on this since he is the most knowledgeable member here on morphology.
Like i said before, data on Robustness tends to vary a LOT so i usually refrain from drawing any conclusions (regarding robustness) without a consistent trend over more than one set of data. That being said, i do find a consistent trend confirming what you're suggesting 1. Differential scaling of the long bones in the terrestrial carnivora and other mammalsHumeri AP and ML Robustness: American Black bear (i'll just throw ABB here for the sake of comparison): AP: 10.96%; ML: 9.71%; Total: 20.67% Brown bear: AP: 11.76%; ML: 10.84%; Total: 22.6% Polar bear: AP: 11.95%; ML: 9.83%; Total: 21.78% In this study, Polar bear is more robust in AP while Brown bear is more robust in ML. Overall robustness of Brown bear is higher than that of Polar bear. 2. Scaling Patterns and Ecological Correlates of Postcranial Skeletal Robusticity in Canis and Ursus: Implications for Human Evolution (the same source as the graph you posted) Humeri robustness (mix-sex): American black bear: AP: 11.10%; ML: 9.65%; Total: 20.75% Brown bear: AP: 10.84%; ML: 9.97%; Total: 20.81% Polar bear: AP: 12.32%; ML: 9.77%; Total: 22.09% Similar to the study above, Polar bear is more robust in AP while Brown bear is more robust in ML. Overall robustness of Polar bear is higher than Brown bear 3. Cursorial Adaptations in the Forelimb of the Giant Short-Faced Bear, Arctodus simus, Revealed by Traditional and 3D Landmark MorphometricsAverage humeri AP and ML robustness (measured by HAPW/HL and HMLW/HL respectively) American black bear: AP: 11.50%; ML: 10.00%; Total: 21.5% Brown bear: AP: 10.60%; ML: 9.80%; Total: 20.4% Polar bear: AP: 12.50%; ML: 9.75%; Total: 22.25% Similar conclusion to other 2 studies above, Polar bear is more robust in AP while Brown bear is more robust in ML. Overall robustness of Polar bear is higher than Brown bear Overall, it does seem like Polar bears do have higher humeri AP robustness than Brown bears do while Brown bears have higher humeri ML robustness. High AP robustness would be more resistant to stresses from for-backward direction (AP direction) while high ML robustness would be more resistant to stresses from side to side (ML direction). I think high humeri AP robustness in Polar bears would probably be related to adaptation for swimming because the polar bears swim in a dog-paddling motion. I'm not sure why Brown bears would have high humeri ML robustness though
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 22, 2019 3:01:03 GMT -5
Thanks Verdugo, beautiful post. So in all 3 studies, the polar bear had a more robust AP, while the brown bear had a more robust ML. in 2 of the studies the polar bear had more overall robustness, in 1 the brown bear had it. so these 3 studies pretty much confirm this trend.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 8, 2019 1:29:48 GMT -5
Funny that the available video evidence does not support the views expressed in written accounts. The bear-on-bear conflict does present as a ritualised 'sumo' style wrestling contest, with few 'haymakers' thrown. Bear skin also appears to be easily torn/shredded down, even by blunted claws in scraps over salmon fishing spots. As for 'grappling', compare how lions use their meat hook claws to penetrate and grasp through the tough hide of buffalo. They do this routinely for a living, and lion hide has to cope with those sharp claws in conflict settings too. Notch and his boys would love to show any grizzly they found, just how effectively a professional crew of killers operates... Lions are powerful cats alright. However, the claws of a grizzly bear are way longer and can dig deeper though they are not as sharp. 3. Grizzly front claws can be up to 4-inches in length, claws as long as human fingers! It is highly advisable you avoid these. www.bearsmart.com/blog/7-little-known-grizzly-bear-facts/
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 8, 2019 1:34:32 GMT -5
Hey, lions habitually hunt real dangerous prey, so sometimes, for sure, they die trying. But mostly, they kill and eat what they grapple down as prey, (including bears, when available). A big male grizzly bear can actually defend itself better from a lion than a cape buffalo can. Once the lion gets the cape buffalo's throat or gets on top, there is little the cape buffalo can do if the lion plays its cards right. A grizzly bear has flexible forearms than enables it to get at the lion even if the big cat manages to get on its back.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 8, 2019 4:45:58 GMT -5
Hey, lions habitually hunt real dangerous prey, so sometimes, for sure, they die trying. But mostly, they kill and eat what they grapple down as prey, (including bears, when available). A big male grizzly bear can actually defend itself better from a lion than a cape buffalo can. Once the lion gets the cape buffalo's throat or gets on top, there is little the cape buffalo can do if the lion plays its cards right. A grizzly bear has flexible forearms than enables it to get at the lion even if the big cat manages to get on its back. If i am understanding right, did Gort say that lions hunt bears when available?
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