|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 25, 2020 18:39:23 GMT -5
Ok, i am just glancing fast through the book "Grizzly years" because i already read it. I am looking for that 10 year old full grown phrase, i hope i dont miss it. Now i just came across this:
"Adult females are fully grown by the time they have their first litter. Male grizzlies, by contrast, continue to grow each year of their life, suggesting that greater size, and therefore dominance, serve some evolutionary function and that the social life of the bear may be more complex than is generally thought"
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2020 2:46:33 GMT -5
If you read the book from cover-to-cover, Doug mentions more than once that a grizzly is a full-grown bear at 10 years of age. He even specifies, at some point, that he has gotten to know a large number of bears and has a name for each one according to some individual characteristic. He specifies too that he divides the bears into two separate classes; the juveniles and the full-grown bears 10 years or older. ( I'm supposing he estimates their ages ). *Edit and add: I realize that not everyone will be in complete agreement as to at what age a male brown bear is full-grown. For me; the number is #10. But I can live with 8-year-old bears being tossed into the mix for acquiring an "average weight" for male brown bears in any given population. But anything below 8 years is absolutely a subadult or juvenile and the averaging is flawed. I'm not certain whether or not it was Doug Peacock or another bear expert who said that a male grizzly below the age of 10 years is not yet ready to fight for choice berry patches, a choice fishing spot, or a favored female bear. He may be sexually mature at 4.5 years of age, but he will be much older before he is out there breeding. Competition among grizzlies is tough.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2020 7:37:54 GMT -5
OK; this is something that bugs me: I understand that when biologists are out doing their field work, getting an estimation on the bear population of some specific location, capturing bears so as to give them each a "medical examination" which would include sex, approximate age, measurements, and weight. Why publish male brown bears 5 years old and up as adults. Now; I understand that biologists have absolutely no interest in big cat vs bear debates. I get that. But, if a group of biologists were doing a study on the average size and weight of men from multiple countries; would they include boys 12 and up as adults? *I don't think so.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 26, 2020 7:52:29 GMT -5
If you take a look at all the weight charts that we have, there is a considerable difference between the 8 year olds and the 9 year olds. This is clear in charts. 9 should be the youngest to be considered fully grown unless the chart specifies that the 8 year old was radio-collared for some years later and maintained the same weight. This info of course, is not likely to ever be seen in a chart not because an 8 year old brown bear cannot be full grown at age 8, but because they dont put this kind of details on charts.
|
|
|
Post by tom on Dec 26, 2020 18:01:24 GMT -5
OK; this is something that bugs me: I understand that when biologists are out doing their field work, getting an estimation on the bear population of some specific location, capturing bears so as to give them each a "medical examination" which would include sex, approximate age, measurements, and weight. Why publish male brown bears 5 years old and up as adults. Now; I understand that biologists have absolutely no interest in big cat vs bear debates. I get that. But, if a group of biologists were doing a study on the average size and weight of men from multiple countries; would they include boys 12 and up as adults? *I don't think so. So Bear biologists are actually stating this? Hell a Grizzly cub stays with it's mother till almost 3 years old and is still considered a cub. You would think if anyone knows when a Grizzly reaches maturity or adulthood it would be a Bear Biologists. A 5 year old I would consider a sub adult. ODD.....
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2020 18:07:56 GMT -5
OK; this is something that bugs me: I understand that when biologists are out doing their field work, getting an estimation on the bear population of some specific location, capturing bears so as to give them each a "medical examination" which would include sex, approximate age, measurements, and weight. Why publish male brown bears 5 years old and up as adults. Now; I understand that biologists have absolutely no interest in big cat vs bear debates. I get that. But, if a group of biologists were doing a study on the average size and weight of men from multiple countries; would they include boys 12 and up as adults? *I don't think so. So Bear biologists are actually stating this? Hell a Grizzly cub stays with it's mother till almost 3 years old and is still considered a cub. You would think if anyone knows when a Grizzly reaches maturity or adulthood it would be a Bear Biologists. A 5 year old I would consider a sub adult. ODD..... When they average out the weight of the adult male bear in any given population, they include bears who have reached sexual maturity ( 5 years old and up ). As if puberty equals to being full-grown.
|
|
|
Post by theundertaker45 on Dec 26, 2020 18:17:43 GMT -5
A very good point that you've made in your previous post. That's why I'd only consider weight data as reasonable if the age of the weighted individuals was determined.
Growth patterns related to age is one of those essential aspects that very few people actually take into account.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 26, 2020 18:23:39 GMT -5
Yeah, especially that .......(cant say the word) "Mojave55" who is telling everyone that Kodiaks average 312 kg based on that famous chart that has no age classes and shows that the Alaska peninsula grizzly is larger. And no one knows enough to answer him, Dinopithecus does not know and agrees with him that a Populator is larger and would win.
carnivora.net/smilodon-populator-v-kodiak-bear-t6755-s135.html#p149137
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 26, 2020 18:26:51 GMT -5
Even the 8-9 year olds average 835 lbs, at a minimum: but that Mojave does not show this chart does he?
|
|
|
Post by theundertaker45 on Dec 26, 2020 18:29:09 GMT -5
Of the chart producing 312kg as an average, only 1 individual of the 10 being described definitely was in the 9y+ range. That equals 10% of the whole dataset. But of course Mojave 555 will throw around that figure without even reading through the real data, we know what type of guy he is and what he did here (still disgusted by it)....
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 26, 2020 18:39:31 GMT -5
theundertaker45 You know what the funny thing is?
#1) he posted the same crap at WAW and i explained the age thing to him, how he was wrong, that a chart with no age classes is useIess. also showed him the chart above. Did he at least try to understand anything? Obviously not, he is now posting the same crap at Carnivora. And this is why debates are a joke.
#2) EVEN IF Kodiaks average 312 kg (which is far from the truth), it is still larger than the populator at 290 kg, which i already showed him from Researchgate also at WAW. So you can just imagine the average weight he must be claiming for his beloved populator, probably more than 800 lbs, lmfao.
|
|
|
Post by theundertaker45 on Dec 26, 2020 18:42:40 GMT -5
King Kodiak The boys fresh out of puberty (312kg Kodiaks) can keep up and even surpass the fully grown average size of the largest cats in the world, yeah, we do know that now. 👍
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 26, 2020 18:46:20 GMT -5
theundertaker45 : Look at the Troyer chart above, the 5-6 year old males, 3 specimens, averaged 623 lbs, summer weight. That should tell you all.
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 27, 2020 3:21:36 GMT -5
theundertaker45 : Look at the Troyer chart above, the 5-6 year old males, 3 specimens, averaged 623 lbs, summer weight. That should tell you all. 5 and 6 year old brown bears - juvenile/subadult bears.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 27, 2020 6:42:30 GMT -5
theundertaker45 : Look at the Troyer chart above, the 5-6 year old males, 3 specimens, averaged 623 lbs, summer weight. That should tell you all. 5 and 6 year old brown bears - juvenile/subadult bears. We went thru this already. Ages 5-8 would be considered "young adults", but not fully grown.
This report here explains it perfectly:
BY THE TIME THEY REACH OR EXCEED EIGHT TO NINE YEARS OF AGE, MALE KODIAK BEARS TEND TO BE MUCH LARGER THAN NEWLY MATURE 6 YEAR OLD MALES, POTENTIALLY TRIPLING THEIR AVERAGE WEIGHT WITHIN THREE YEARS TIME AND CAN EXPECT TO AVERAGE BETWEEN 360 AND 545 KG (794 to 1202 LBS)
|
|
|
Post by brobear on Dec 27, 2020 6:52:22 GMT -5
Quote: We went thru this already. Ages 5-8 would be considered "young adults", but not fully grown. Simply a choice of wording and/or categorizing. Remember too that there is much ( especially where bears are concerned, that the top experts disagree on. My vision: My thoughts ( for male brown bear ): 0 to 3 = cub. 4 to 5 = juvenile ( just reaching puberty ). 6 to 8 = subadult ( sexually mature but still growing ). 9 and up = full-grown adult boar... no tiger has ever killed an adult male brown bear.
|
|
|
Post by theundertaker45 on Dec 27, 2020 7:46:56 GMT -5
Average weight in relation to age based on Kodiak bears and Yellowstone grizzlies
The 193kg and 312kg average numbers for Yellowstone grizzlies and Kodiak bears seem to be quite popular but what gets disregarded various times is the relation of those average weights to the average age of the individuals included, so some relations to the age of mine:
Kodiak Bear (Troyer, 1969)
Average weight of the individuals included in the weight chart with specified age ranges: ~306kg (~674lbs, n=13) Number of 9y+ adults included in this weight chart: 1-4 (precise number is unknown as just the ranges were given) Average age of the individuals included in the weight chart: ~7.3y (taking the median of the age ranges into account) Percentage of 9y+ males being included: 8-31% Age and weight of the largest individual (spring specimens only): ~540kg (~1190lbs, 9y of age) Average weight of individuals definitely described as being 9y+ (spring specimens only as the individuals of the chart were spring weights): ~454kg (~1002lbs, n=2)
Yellowstone Grizzly (Blanchard, 1987)
Average weight of the individuals included in the weight chart with specified age ranges: ~194kg (~428lbs; n=61) Number of 9y+ adults included in this weight chart: 32 Average age of the individuals included in the weight chart: ~9.4y Percentage of 9y+ males being included: ~53% Age and weight of the largest individual: ~302kg (~666lbs, 15y of age) Average weight of individuals definitely described as being 9y+: ~235kg (~518lbs; n=29)
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 27, 2020 8:11:19 GMT -5
That's really great work there Taker breaking all that down.
|
|
|
Post by King Kodiak on Dec 27, 2020 8:20:09 GMT -5
theundertaker45 :
Every time i have posted the Troyer chart, my main goal is to show the fanboys the actual chart at the left side because obviously that is what they will look at. If they can see that 5 specimens of 8-9 year olds average 835 lbs, than that is enough for me. Why though? Because consider that just making them understand that figure is hard enough, so just imagine showing them the right side and explaining to them all the calculations we did there to get a 1077 lb average weight? They would never believe that. It would be basically impossible. That is why i just go for the 835 lbs which is clearly visible and easier to understand. You get my point?
|
|
|
Post by theundertaker45 on Dec 30, 2020 18:50:08 GMT -5
Weight of fully grown brown bears in the northcentral Alaska Range (by Reynolds, 1985; estimated weights were excluded)
Males
Average weight of fully grown males (9y+) in spring/summer: ~265kg (~584lbs; n=7) Weight of the heaviest individual: ~295kg (~650lbs; 15.5y old male)
Females
Average weight of fully grown females (7y+) in spring/summer: ~121kg (~267lbs; n=24) Weight of the heaviest individual: ~218kg (~481lbs; 19.5y old female)
|
|