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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 9:29:26 GMT -5
OK; we're getting closer to an agreement. 5-8 young adult bears = 10-17 young adult men. A better word to use here is juvenile or subadult. Thus avoiding ignorant arguments with fanboys. There is also a big difference between a 5-year-old bear and an 8-year-old bear. Thus I say: 4 to 5 = juvenile. and 6 to 8 = subadult. Yes, that would be the thing, arguing with fanboys, i agree there. If a tiger killed a 5/6 year old brown bear, its better to just tell them the tiger killed a subadult bear instead of trying to explain to them that is not a full grown bear, it wastes less time, that's for sure. But the argument would definitely escalate and escalate and we would finally have to explain to them that a 5/6 year old brown bear is a "young adult" but not fully grown. I think more importantly would be the weight of the bear killed rather than if its a "subadult", "young adult", "adult", or whatever.
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Post by brobear on Nov 26, 2020 10:01:53 GMT -5
Merriam Webster: Definition of subadult: an individual that has passed through the juvenile period but not yet attained typical adult characteristics. *It will simply make things simpler if we use the word 'subadult'.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 10:04:34 GMT -5
This is just perfect guys! Check out the huge difference in weight between Ussuri brown bears, a "young adult" of 6-7 years of age weighted only 180 kg, whereas an "adult male" of 8-10 years of age weighted 235 kg:PETER:
Some years ago, another document on Ussuri brown bears was published. Seryodkin was involved in that one as well. Here's a scan of table 1. Two of the three male brown bears were collared in the Sichote-Alin Nature Reserve. The young adult male (6-7 years of age) was 180 kg, whereas the adult male (8-10 years of age) was 235 kg: Post #2510:
wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris?page=168
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 10:10:19 GMT -5
From the same post as above:
Peter:
The question is if male grizzly bears can be considered as adult at age 5. My guess is most authorities consider a male brown bear as adult when he reaches 8-9 years of age. Males of 5-7 years of age would be considered as young adults. In order to be able to compare American male grizzly's with male Ussuri brown bears (see the table in -b-), I only used male grizzly's of 8 years and older in order to get to a comparison.
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Post by brobear on Nov 26, 2020 10:15:12 GMT -5
My thoughts concerning the maturity of male brown bears: 0 to 3 = cub.
4 to 5 = juvenile.
6 to 8 = subadult.
9 and up = full-grown adult boar. Peter ( your favorite tiger enthusiast ) says: "Males of 5-7 years of age would be considered as young adults." Yes, by this he means sexually mature. However, as I pointed out on reply #109: the average boy in America reaches sexual puberty at age 9 or 10. To call a male brown bear from 5 to 7 a "young adult" is also calling boys from ages 9 to about 15 "young adult". ALL that Peter is actually saying is, the male bears from 5 to 7 are sexually mature. A bear is either a subadult or an adult. He cannot be an "adult but not an adult". I don't understand why you are arguing with this.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 10:31:55 GMT -5
Leave humans out, we are talking about bears here. A 4 year old tiger is a "young adult" but can keep growing until around age 7. You have to separate "young adults" from "adults".
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 10:35:51 GMT -5
Some guys are still virgins by even 21 years old so, lmao.
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Post by brobear on Nov 26, 2020 10:36:32 GMT -5
Leave humans out, we are talking about bears here. A 4 year old tiger is a "young adult" but can keep growing until around age 7. You have to separate "young adults" from "adults".
I will not leave humans out of it because the comparisons are real. Just because a boy reaches puberty does not make him a man. Also; if you wish to use the term - young adult - you are saying that he is an adult. A 12-year-old grizzly is younger than a 15-year-old grizzly. So, young adult is pretty-much a meaningless terminology.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 26, 2020 10:42:21 GMT -5
My take on this:
In the world of animals the goal of very individual is to reach sexual maturity and reproduce itself, sharing its genes and keeping the gene pool alive and diverse. When an animal achieves this goal, it is considered an adult by nature's standards but that doesn't mean this individual has achieved its prime status. Especially in grizzly bears we see that growth of body measurements usually lasts until the age of 9y and annual weight gain may last until the age of 15y.
Comparing this to humans: In our world there is no absolute necessity to reproduce, many people prefer to stay alone and we therefore probably have a different standard. A boy/girl reaching sexual maturity isn't considered an adult yet, in us humans it is mostly related to the mental development, not the physical. That's why there are different age restrictions in every country, everyone states the time of achieving adult state differently.
Speaking of bears compared to humans: A 5y old male grizzly bear would match a male boy coming straight out of puberty having reached sexual maturity, a 9y old male grizzly would match a human male having achieved his full standing height (only the height, not the weight) and a 15y old male grizzly would match an adult male human having achieved his physical prime.
That's my opinion.
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Post by brobear on Nov 26, 2020 10:42:22 GMT -5
Check out the weight of a 5-year-old: 149.1 kilograms is equal to 328.71 pounds ( tiger prey-sized bear ).
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 10:48:43 GMT -5
Ok brobear, what can i say? If you want to call 5-8 year old brown bears "subadults" thats fine with me. But some 6 year old brown bears do reach full size already (not all)
Here is the Yellostone grizzly: 7 grizzlies were already full grown by age 6, are those "subadults" also?
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/671/grizzly-bear-anatomy?page=1%C2%A0
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Post by brobear on Nov 26, 2020 11:13:54 GMT -5
Geezz. Some 16-year-old boys are bigger than I am too. This is yours: From 0 to 2.5 years-cub From 2.5 to 5 years-subadult From 5 to 9 years-adult but not fully grown From 9 years and up-adult and fully grown. *So you are saying that male brown bears are adults after they hit the age of 5 years old. Male brown bears of that age/size are tiger prey.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 11:27:51 GMT -5
Who said tigers prey on 5 year old brown bears? Never read that anywhere. Anyhow, a 5 year old Ussuri brown bear should weight less than 400 lbs.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 11:33:47 GMT -5
Check it out, the average weight of 4-5 year old Kodiak bears is just 404 lbs, so just imagine the Ussuri brown bear:
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Post by brobear on Nov 26, 2020 11:37:28 GMT -5
Reply #127: a 5-year-old ( average from 9 bears ): 149.1 kilograms is equal to 328.71 pounds ( tiger prey-sized bear ). A 5-year-old Ussuri would weigh little different. Probably less than 400 pounds. Kodiak says: Check it out, the average weight of 4-5 year old Kodiak bears is just 404 lbs, so just imagine the Ussuri brown bear: *Yes; less than 400-pounds.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 11:52:32 GMT -5
Read my reply #120 which is very interesting. A 6-7 year old Ussuri brown bear weighted 180 kg (397 lbs), that is still less than the average Amur tiger. For me, the important thing is the weight of the bear killed, not if its considered an "adult" or whatever we want to label them.
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Post by brobear on Nov 26, 2020 12:02:38 GMT -5
My thoughts ( for male brown bear ): 0 to 3 = cub. 4 to 5 = juvenile. 6 to 8 = subadult ( mature but still growing ). 9 and up = full-grown adult boar... no tiger has ever killed an adult male brown bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 26, 2020 12:08:22 GMT -5
Agreed. No confirmed cases.
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Post by brobear on Dec 25, 2020 15:46:05 GMT -5
This topic comes up often and often turns into a heated debate. Let's get some answers here. This is what I have: shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/671/grizzly-bear-anatomy?page=1 Males attained full size in 7 of 11 body measurements by age 6 and in all 11 by age 9. Thus, for male bears, skeletal growth appeared to be completed rapidly while weight tended to increase throughout the normal life span. This contribution presents results of a study of the timing of appendicular epiphyseal fusion in brown bears (Ursus arctos) based on the visual examination of 86 modern skeletons of grizzlies (U. a. horribilis) of known age and sex from the greater Yellowstone area, in the States of Wyoming and Montana (US). The timing of fusion in brown bears was compared with the (scant) information available for the black bear (Ursus americanus); both similarities and differences were found. It is still inconclusive whether the discrepancies stem from the methods of study (visual examination vs. X-rays) or whether they reflect real difference in fusion ages. It is suggested that data derived from U. arctos can be used profitably to investigate mortality patterns of extinct bears such as the cave bear Ursus spelaeus. Weinstock, J. (2009), Epiphyseal fusion in brown bears: a population study of grizzlies (Ursus arctos horribilis) from Montana and Wyoming. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology, 19: 416–423. I can also say that in Doug Peacock's books; particularly "Grizzly Years" he considers the male grizzly to be a full-grown bear at 10 years old. He refers to an 8-year-old bear as a sub-adult. While one might consider a male brown bear as a full-grown bear at 9 years old; I personally agree with Doug Peacock and a great many other "bear men" from the ( roughly ) 60 books I have read on the subject of brown bears, that he is a full-grown adult at the age of 10 years. Consider also, he will continue to grow up 'till he is roughly 15 years old and will not be elderly until after 20 years old.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 25, 2020 17:57:49 GMT -5
Brown bears have surprisingly greater longevity than polar bears which in turn have greater longevity than big cats. Polar bears live up to 20 years in the wild but can live up to 40 years in captivity.
It is probably something to do with the lack of plant matter in the arctic.
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