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Post by brobear on Dec 23, 2021 3:09:44 GMT -5
Numerous times, in various big cat vs brown bear topics, the cat fans have posted pictures of their favorite big cats standing in profile ( broad-side to the camera ), with their shoulders appearing like ( in the eyes of the big cat fans ) like a shoulder hump. However, when pictured looking straight into the camera ( front view ), we can clearly see the V-shaped concave shoulders. On video, we can see that deep V rotating, first one sider up high then the other. The brown bear has a true shoulder hump, a mass of muscles, which reinforces his already incredible bear strength. In a full-frontal picture, this shoulder hump is rounded ( convex ). Only in an older brown bear, past his prime, do we see a convex shoulder hump. Or, also, a brown bear of very poor condition due to a harsh lack of nutritious food resources.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 24, 2021 3:20:58 GMT -5
/\ That picture above looks really bluish. Plus that brown bear looks heavier than any big cat.
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Post by brobear on Jan 6, 2022 16:42:07 GMT -5
At equal HB length ( which is a completely fair method of comparison ) a brown bear is far more muscular than any big cat. There are those who will argue that a lion or a tiger has stronger hind quarters than a brown bear. I suppose they get this idea from the fact that cats are outstanding jumpers. But, when I compare the narrow hips of a tiger to those massive hips of a bear, I have to ask the question, where is all of that poundage of tiger muscles hidden? Then, I consider the fact that the weight-lifter is not the broad-jump/high-jump champion of the Olympics.
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Post by brobear on Jan 7, 2022 17:56:01 GMT -5
But still; comparing them at weight-parity is just plain stupid. They're two Carnivores with equal number of vertebrates... no excuse not to compare them at equal HB length. The only flaw is the length of neck and muzzle which favors the tiger. This gives an honest comparison which proves just how much more powerfully built the bear is over the big cat. And of course the big cat fanboys resist this completely honest comparison.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 7, 2022 19:16:57 GMT -5
But still; comparing them at weight-parity is just plain stupid. They're two Carnivores with equal number of vertebrates... no excuse not to compare them at equal HB length. The only flaw is the length of neck and muzzle which favors the tiger. This gives an honest comparison which proves just how much more powerfully built the bear is over the big cat. And of course the big cat fanboys resist this completely honest comparison. We don’t live in a weight parity world. For example, comparing a polar bear to a tiger or lion would mean removing its weight advantage (considering even a small male polar bear is larger and stronger than these two big cats). Most male brown bear subspecies are larger and stronger than tigers and lions too. Let’s not forget about the square cub law.
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Post by brobear on Jan 7, 2022 23:52:29 GMT -5
But still; comparing them at weight-parity is just plain stupid. They're two Carnivores with equal number of vertebrates... no excuse not to compare them at equal HB length. The only flaw is the length of neck and muzzle which favors the tiger. This gives an honest comparison which proves just how much more powerfully built the bear is over the big cat. And of course the big cat fanboys resist this completely honest comparison. We don’t live in a weight parity world. For example, comparing a polar bear to a tiger or lion would mean removing its weight advantage (considering even a small male polar bear is larger and stronger than these two big cats). Most male brown bear subspecies are larger and stronger than tigers and lions too. Let’s not forget about the square cub law. True. But my point is this; comparing the lion or tiger with the brown bear at equal head-and-body length is the most fair method of comparison. How can this not be fair, as both animals have exactly the same number of vertebrate bones in their backs? In this method of comparison, we can actually weigh the difference in the two very different animals. We can measure the girth difference in each at equal size ( HB length ). The fantastic coincidence is, the typical full-grown male Amur tiger and the typical full-grown male Ussuri brown bear are equal in HB length. Average mature Amur tiger (contemporary) - 418.9 pounds. Average fully-grown male Ussuri brown bear ( 10 years+) - 657 pounds. So, the brown bear, at equal HB length, has a weight advantage of roughly 238 pounds. There are many posters who claim that at equal size, a big cat is more muscular than a bear. This statement is false.
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Post by brobear on Jan 8, 2022 0:48:38 GMT -5
The big cat fan's ( desperate ) idea that comparing the muscle mass of each animal reveals which animal is stronger is - Wrong! The muscle mass of each animal is merely the percentage of skeletal muscle within that particular animals own body. Therefore, while the Amur tiger might have a greater muscle mass than the Ussuri brown bear, the bear has greater girth, heavier bones, and therefore more room for more muscle. If the tiger had more muscle than the bear, the bear would not have a weight advantage of 238 pounds. www.healthline.com/health/muscle-mass-percentage
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Post by brobear on Jan 11, 2022 9:09:47 GMT -5
The big cat fan's ( desperate ) idea that comparing the muscle mass of each animal reveals which animal is stronger is - Wrong! The muscle mass of each animal is merely the percentage of skeletal muscle within that particular animals own body. Therefore, while the Amur tiger might have a greater muscle mass than the Ussuri brown bear, the bear has greater girth, heavier bones, and therefore more room for more muscle. If the tiger had more muscle than the bear, the bear would not have a weight advantage of 238 pounds. www.healthline.com/health/muscle-mass-percentageThe bold statement - "Big cats are the most muscular mammals on the Earth" - so often claimed by cat fans is wrong. The cat might have more muscle per-poundage of his own body ( muscle mass ) but when you compare a big cat to a brown bear at equal HB length, the bear is much heavier with far superior girth of neck, limbs, and torso. There is a lot more involved in physical strength than mere muscle mass.
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Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2022 18:08:00 GMT -5
Looking at the lions and tigers at: Size Comparisons (The Grand Arena and others) - Reply #1784 / Reply #1785, the South Chinese tiger appears to be the 'poster child' for the average tiger at 152 kg or 335 pounds. As for the lions, I averaged them all up to 174.6 kg or roughly 385 pounds. This would make the East African lion the 'poster child' for the average lion. *Note: I'm sure that these averages are not accurate down to the pound, but the full-grown males of both the lion and the tiger, each as a species ( all subspecies entered into the averaging ) each weigh well below the 400-pound mark. So now, let's compare this to the brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2022 18:14:37 GMT -5
What is a rough estimation of Ursus arctos ( all subspecies of brown bears - full-grown males )? OldGreenGrolar had asked this question once some months ago. 1- Gobi bear - 300 pounds ( rough estimate ) 2- Syrian brown bear - 300 pounds ( rough estimate ) 3- Himalayan brown bear - 300 pounds ( rough estimate ) 4 - Tibetan brown bear - 300 pounds ( rough estimate ) 5- grizzly - 470 pounds 6- European brown bear - 590 pounds. 7- East Siberian brown bear - 520 pounds. 8- Ussuri brown bear - 657 pounds. 9- Kamchatka brown bear - 660 pounds. 10- Alaska Peninsula brown bear - 860 pounds. 11- Kodiak brown bear - 1,077 pounds. *This averages out to roughly 548.5 pounds for the average full-grown male brown bear. Not real science as population sizes were not considered. The greatest populations are those of the coastal giants. However, this lower average seems to work out just fine.
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Post by brobear on Jan 24, 2022 4:36:30 GMT -5
rorqual wrote: ↑Aug 14, 2019 Bears have a significant morphological advantage over cats by possessing a stronger collarbone. The cats' collarbone is reduced in order to allow for speed and flexibility, but this offsets the animal's strength. Dale Miquelle, a world authority on tigers, said this:
"All i can say is, the Amur can be highly ferocious, and i would consider it more than unsafe to assume otherwise. In regard strengths (relative) The bigcats have reduced collarbones when compared to Ungulates and Bears, which increases flexibility and speed, while compromising ultimate strength potential, however, the Amur is least lacking, among Pantherines, in this department. Finally, the Amur should attain the greatest weight potentials under Bergmans rule but is now Challenged by the movement of Tigers into higher elevations due to the influence of man. Here we might get other Pantherine species facing similar increases in body size. I hope this is of some help."
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Post by brobear on Jan 31, 2022 8:42:58 GMT -5
Among canids, felids, and ursids, canine bending strength increases with body size and, for a given body size, is greater among felids than among canids or ursids but, in relation to bite force, canine strengths are similar in canids and felids and slightly higher in ursids ( Christiansen and Adolfssen, 2005.) (Only when bears are larger.) books.google.com/books?id=s6loDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA268&dq=ursids+bite+felids&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwio65iXuZL1AhWwaDABHfFlDbcQ6AF6BAgFEAMFrom Dr. Yuri Dunishenko and Dr. Alexander Khulikov. ... We compared skulls, and though the brown bear's Was bigger, it was not that much bigger than the tiger's. books.google.com/books?id=ZtVjbIJC3tQC&pg=PA21&dq=dunishenko+tigers+bear&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiHk_GcqZL1AhV1SzABHWx0BzcQ6wF6BAgJEAUThe intertubercular groove of ursids is closed and canal-like, allowing a better control of movement and a more powerful biceps brachii than felids (Siliceo, 2014) “Among these traits, the intertubercular groove morphology has interesting functional implications: the ten- don of the muscle biceps brachii runs into this groove, with the transversal humeral ligament (developed between both the greater and the lesser tubercles) keeping the tendon in place inside the groove (Evans 1993; Barone 2010). As described previously, the shape of the intertubercular groove is similar in canids, felids, and amphicyonids in general (thus including M. anceps), it being markedly different from that of ursids, which have a much more closed, canal-like groove (Fig. 6). Taylor (1974) associated this character with both the power of the muscle biceps brachii and the degree of usage: a clearly defined intertubercular groove, such as that of ursids, would allow a better control of movements, and probably a powerful muscle. “ www.researchgate.net/profile/Gema-Siliceo/publication/264931438_Comparative_Anatomy_of_the_Shoulder_Region_in_the_Late_Miocene_Amphicyonid_Magericyon_anceps_Carnivora_Functional_and_Paleoecological_Inferences/links/53fb1ad20cf2e3cbf565fa7e/Comparative-Anatomy-of-the-Shoulder-Region-in-the-Late-Miocene-Amphicyonid-Magericyon-anceps-Carnivora-Functional-and-Paleoecological-Inferences.pdf?origin=publication_detailAnd this. “I have a story that supports this conjecture, too. I was once an a kayaking trip in the Siberian tiger reserve along the eastern seaboard of Russia- when I met a field researcher, Dale Miquelle,who to of a story once arriving at a site where a tiger has just made a kill of a large deer. Miquelle knew the tiger was very close; he even assumed the cat was watching him as he stopped to examine the deer. Suddenly a huge brown bear (very closely related to the grizzly) bushes out of the bush, and Miquell, screaming and jumping backward, fell down an embankment That, likelihood , saved him from a severe mauling. The startled bear ran off, and once Miquelle calmed himself, he examined the tracks around the deer and reconstructed what happened. The tiger had killed the deer, but then the bear had arrived and stolen the kill from the tiger. This was the first time that a scientist had ever established the order of dominance between big cats and big bears.” books.google.com/books?id=ngRHjR6xumgC&pg=PA201&dq=dale+miquelle+tiger+bear&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV4tSkrpL1AhXTRDABHeu6B9kQ6AF6BAgIEAMThe brown bear has a higher mL and AP diameter than BOTH lion and tiger in femur. Lion: ML: 28.23 AP: 26.21 Tiger: ML: 28.10. AP: 27.23. Brown Bear ML: 40.05 AP: 34.32 The brown bear has a higher mL diameter and AP Diameter than lion and tiger in the humerus . Lion ML: 25.47 AP: 36.5 Tiger ML: 25.70 AP: 34.11 Brown Bear ML: 35.88 AP: 38.94 The brown bear has a higher mL diameter and AP diameter in Radius than lion and tiger. Lion ML: 25.48 AP: 16.22 Tiger ML: 21.53 AP: 17.86 Brown Bear ML: 34.28 AP: 21.05 The brown bear has a higher mL diameter and AP Diameter in Tibia than tiger and lion. Lion ML: 25.97 AP: 28.11 Tiger ML: 26.08 AP: 30.15 Brown Bear ML: 27.35 AP: 34.51 The brown bear has longer and longer diameters in the four major bone limbs. redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7226874&u=https%3A//www.researchgate.net/publication/20806549_Differential_scaling_of_the_long_bones_in_the_terrestrial_carnivora_and_other_mammalsWhen a big cat is compared to a bear at equal HB length, which is a fair and honest comparison, the difference becomes crystal clear. The bear is built so-much more robust in fact, that big cat fans ( hypocritically ) claim an equal HB length comparison to be unfair to the big cat.
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Post by brobear on Feb 1, 2022 10:57:48 GMT -5
From page #1 - Tiger and Brown Bear - Interspecific Relations - Reply #12: According to the study.... a comparison of the average mature male Amur tiger and mature male black grizzly: Tiger: head and body length - 195 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ) - Grizzly: head and body length 196 cm ( 6 feet 5 inches ). Tiger: shoulder height - 93 cm ( 3 feet ) - Grizzly: shoulder height - 115 cm ( 3 feet 9 inches ). Tiger: chest girth - 119 cm ( 3 feet 11 inches ) - Grizzly: 137 cm ( 4 feet 6 inches ). Tiger: weight - 200 kg ( 441 pounds ) - Grizzly: 298 kg ( 657 pounds ). *Note: measured at HB length, the average adult male Amur tiger and the adult male Ussuri brown bear are equal. 441 pound tiger vs 657 pound brown bear is a fair fight. May the more powerful species be victorious.
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Post by brobear on Feb 12, 2022 5:22:20 GMT -5
In this topic, 'Strength and Girth Comparison of Bears and Big Cats' the bear is obviously the winner. This is undeniable when all who participate in the debate keep it honest. If we were to compare two athletes ( human ) with each standing 6 feet tall, each in good physical condition, but one of these men weighs half-again the weight of the other. Also, when this heavier athlete proves to have greater girth of neck, arms, legs, and torso, then it becomes obvious from this comparison which athlete is the stronger of the two. The same holds true when the tiger is compared to the brown bear at equal HB length - the only method of producing a fair and honest comparison. FACT: If you compare two men, both healthy and athletic, each standing six feet tall, and one of these men weighs 180 pounds and the other weighs 250 pounds, it is a solid undeniable fact that the heavier man has the greater girth. It is also a solid undeniable fact that the healthy athletic man with the substantial weight advantage is the stronger of the two men.
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Post by brobear on Mar 11, 2022 4:01:09 GMT -5
Let's say that we take a green anaconda and a Burmese python, each measuring exactly 16 feet long. We weigh each snake for a fair comparison. It is an absolute fact that the heavier of these two snakes has the greater girth. This is an undeniable truth. The same holds true if we compare a brown bear to a tiger at equal HB length. The heavier of these two Carnivorans has the greater girth. This greater girth equals to greater strength and greater durability.
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Post by brobear on Mar 29, 2022 3:01:02 GMT -5
In these camera-trap photos is a crystal clear girth comparison between the adult male Amur tiger and the adult male Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Apr 7, 2022 13:07:13 GMT -5
It's called GIRTH.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 7, 2022 19:36:11 GMT -5
Reply 21. The green anaconda has greater girth.
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Post by brobear on Apr 21, 2022 2:12:59 GMT -5
Reply 21. The green anaconda has greater girth. Yes, exactly, at equal HB length, the anaconda proves to have greater girth than the python. Girth = body mass. Nearly all big cat fans ( other than die-hard cougar fanboys ) agree that at equal HB length, a jaguar has greater girth than a cougar. When you look at the two cats, this becomes obvious to anyone with relatively good eye-site and normal intelligence. Equally as obvious, when you compare a brown bear with any living big cat, no measuring tapes are need to ascertain which animal has the greater body mass.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Apr 22, 2022 16:03:42 GMT -5
Just for comparison purposes; the Yellowstone grizzly bear has a HB-length of 164.3cm measured in a straight line and a weight of 193.3kg (5y+); lions and tigers commonly are about 190cm long in order to reach that weight. At the same HB-length a brown bear will hold a weight advantage of almost 100kg over the two largest extant big cats.
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