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Post by tom on Jan 19, 2021 15:43:35 GMT -5
Is it not ironic? Big Cat enthusiasts post topics like; "Massive Head, Neck, and Shoulders", "Huge Shoulders and Chest", "Impressive Big Cats", "Massive Specimens", etc. These attributes they look for in their chosen big cat, bears, especially the brown bear, have in spades. Yet, the fanboys wear dark glasses and blinders when looking at a bear. Total denial. I am not saying that there are not some very impressive big cats out there. But, when it comes down to having muscle-in-bulk, the bears win hands down. Agreed. Probably similar to comparing a 220 pound competing bodybuilder with 4% bodyfat with Worlds strong man champion 400 lb Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson. Both have plenty of muscle, but Björnsson just has massive amount of bulk to go with all that muscle.
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Post by brobear on Jan 20, 2021 11:12:10 GMT -5
From the book "Cats of Africa: Behavior, ecology, and conservation"
Ragardless of species, the feline skeleton delivers speed to run down prey and strength to subdue it. However, this presents and immediate biomechanial impasse as adaptations for speed tend to counter those for strength. The feline design is an efficient compromise between the two, meaning that most cat species tend to be very fast and very strong for short bursts, but lack endurance in either. Cats are built for explosive effort. they cannot run down prey over long distances as members of the dog family, nor can they spend hours excavating it, as do bears or badgers.
books.google.com/books?id=qQhuqVC4bnEC&pg=PP56&dq=Bears+have+stronger+skeletons+than+felids&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwit4oO96aruAhXWB80KHeF-DDAQ6AEwAXoECAMQAg
It is impossible for a cat to be as strong as a bear of equal size ( head-and-body-length parity ).
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 20, 2021 11:27:00 GMT -5
The cat fans need to be happy with the cat's speed adaptation and forget about strength. Unfortunately for cats, the cats have compromised strength for speed, this is very clear.
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Post by brobear on Jan 23, 2021 5:40:48 GMT -5
The cat fans need to be happy with the cat's speed adaptation and forget about strength. Unfortunately for cats, the cats have compromised strength for speed, this is very clear. Agreed. ( IMO ) a typical cat is a perfect combination of strength, speed, and agility. A wolf ( or a typical dog ) is built mostly for speed and stamina. Less agility than a cat, but the cat is pound-for-pound stronger. Both the cat and the wolf are full-time hunters. The cat ( all cats ) is an ambush predator while the wolf is a chase-and-catch predator. Stealth, speed, and agility are all-important to the cat. Speed and stamina are all-important to the wolf. A bear is an opportunistic omnivore. A "jack-of-all-trades".He can afford the extra pounds which comes with the bulk of being massively muscled. I view the cat as being ( roughly ) 30% speed, 30% agility, 30% strength, and 10% stamina. I view the wolf as being ( roughly ) 40% speed, 30% stamina, 20% strength, and 10% agility. The bear I view as being ( roughly ) 50% strength, 20% speed, 20% stamina, and 10% agility. *No, this isn't from any scientific study. Simply putting into words and numbers the way I personally view each.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jan 23, 2021 10:21:14 GMT -5
Sounds reliable to me. I agree.
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Post by tom on Jan 23, 2021 12:19:28 GMT -5
I would agree except I may exchange the wolf to 30% speed and 40% stamina. Most cat species.... talking Lions, Cougars etc.. can sprint up to 50mph and of course the Cheetah blows them all away, whereas the Wolf tops out according to google at 31-37 mph and can run seemingly forever or till his prey is exhausted.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 24, 2021 6:51:03 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 24, 2021 6:54:52 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Jan 24, 2021 12:56:49 GMT -5
I would agree except I may exchange the wolf to 30% speed and 40% stamina. Most cat species.... talking Lions, Cougars etc.. can sprint up to 50mph and of course the Cheetah blows them all away, whereas the Wolf tops out according to google at 31-37 mph and can run seemingly forever or till his prey is exhausted. *I agree. Stamina tops speed on the long chase.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jan 24, 2021 19:23:01 GMT -5
Canines are the best long distance runners. They are also agile though they lack the grappling ability which bears, primates, and cats have.
The grappling ability of bears and primates seems to be a toss up.
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Post by brobear on Jan 24, 2021 19:43:33 GMT -5
Canines are the best long distance runners. They are also agile though they lack the grappling ability which bears, primates, and cats have. The grappling ability of bears and primates seems to be a toss up. Yes, a wolf has plenty of agility; but he cannot compete with a cat. A big cat is plenty strong too. But, he can't compete with a bear. A bear is fast and agile, but cannot compete with a big cat. A bear has great stamina, but don't hold a candle to the wolf.
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Post by kesagake on Feb 24, 2021 8:33:30 GMT -5
It's already an established fact that Bears are the bulkiest predators pound for pound but cat enthusiasts still deny it and if someone send them the proof they get butthurt and start scheaming, trolling and bullshiting. They are just seriously annoying.
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Post by brobear on Feb 24, 2021 10:47:24 GMT -5
It's already an established fact that Bears are the bulkiest predators pound for pound but cat enthusiasts still denies it and if someone send them the proof they get butthurt and start scheming, trolling and bullshiting. They are just seriously annoying. Over at Wildfact, I once had a long argument ( too heated to be called a debate ) with a highly respected ( among his peers ) tiger enthusiasts. He argued that, even at equal head-and-body length, a typical full-grown male tiger has greater girth than a typical full-grown male brown bear. No matter how much hard evidence I put on the table; he remained a die-hard fanboy in total denial of the truth.
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Post by brobear on Mar 6, 2021 6:51:04 GMT -5
Equal head-and-body length:
Of all the methods we can come up with to compare one species to another for the purpose of comparing girth or strength fairly, this is ( IMO ) without a doubt the best. However, it is not fool-proof. Example, when we compare a brown bear with a tiger in this method, we are actually giving the big cat a slight advantage. The cat, having a shorter neck and a shorter muzzle, thus has several inches advantage - which is too little for any complaints. Even a snake is not ( as some people claim ) just a head with a tail. There is a point where torso ends and tail begins. The bear has been called, by some bear experts of the past, "the strongest animal of his size". I'm not at all certain that this hold true, but a bear compared with any animal at equal head-and-body length is certainly debatable. Especially a brown bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Mar 15, 2021 7:33:17 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Apr 11, 2021 5:50:43 GMT -5
Upper-body strength among Carnivorans ( IMO ) - speculation. 1- Kodiak bear and Alaskan peninsula brown bear. 2- polar bear. 3- other large brown bears. 4- Asiatic black bear and American black bear. 5- lion and tiger. *Not a Carnivoran; but I would rank the gorilla in category 4.
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 3, 2021 11:54:11 GMT -5
I've just discovered new data on the morphometry of Foxe Basin/Svalbard polar bears; so I decided to compare it with other animals:
Foxe Basin Polar Bear
HB-Length (Straight Line): 237cm (males); 198cm (females) Weight: 579kg (males); 255kg (females) BMI: ~103.1 (males); ~65 (females)
Svalbard Polar Bear
HB-Length (Straight Line): 225cm (males); 194cm (females) Weight: 389kg (males); 185kg (females) BMI: ~76.8 (males); ~49.2 (females)
Yellowstone Grizzly Bear
HB-Length (Straight Line): 164cm (males); 151cm (females) Weight: 193kg (males); 135kg (females) BMI: ~71.8 (males); ~59.2 (females)
East African Lion
HB-Length (Straight Line): 184cm (males); 155cm (females) Weight: 174kg (males); 121kg (females) BMI: ~51.4 (males); ~50.4 (females)
American Lion (maximum dimensions)
HB-Length (Straight Line): 250cm Weight: 351kg BMI: ~56.2
Ngandong Tiger (maximum dimensions)
HB-Length (Straight Line): 233cm Weight: 368kg BMI: ~67.8
What we can see here is that male bears usually carry more mass per length than even the biggest cats that ever walked on earth; the Foxe Basin polar bears absolutely smash this ranking and might in fact be as bulky as the biggest extant bovids on a proportional basis. Three different leagues:
1. Large Ursids 2. Large Machairodontines 3. Large Pantherines
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Post by brobear on May 3, 2021 15:35:47 GMT -5
American Lion - head-and-body length - 250cm = 8 feet 2.40 inches. Foxe Basin Polar Bear - head-and-body length - 237cm = 7 feet 9.36 inches.
American Lion - weight - 351kg = 773.82 pounds. Foxe Basin Polar Bear - weight - 579kg = 1,276.48 pounds.
American Lion is 5.12 inches longer than the Foxe Basin Polar Bear. Foxe Basin Polar Bear is 502.65 pounds heavier than the American Lion.
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Post by brobear on Jun 12, 2021 18:40:36 GMT -5
When we compare a brown bear with a tiger at equal head-and-body length, which is ( IMO ) the proper way to compare for strength or for girth, the bear has ( IMO ) a huge strength advantage. Coincidentally, the Amur tiger and the Ussuri brown bear ( typical specimens of each ) are pretty-much at head-and-body length parity. At weight-parity, according to our findings here on morphology, the brown bear still holds a slight edge in overall strength. This by no means would suggest that a tiger is not a magnificently muscled predator. His strength is far beyond that of any human wrestler or weight-lifter. As strong as he is, he has an equal share of speed and agility. But, as a full-time hunter of large herbivores, the tiger cannot afford trade-off bulk for speed, agility, and stealth. It has been said that a cat is ( possibly ) endowed with the greatest muscle mass of all Carnivorans. Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption on this topic. It is my understanding that muscle mass is the percentage of body weight made up of muscle tissue as opposed to all other body weight. So, it looking at bear strength vs big cat strength, we are looking at girth/bulk vs muscle mass ( IMO ).
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Post by brobear on Aug 6, 2021 2:25:14 GMT -5
*Again, as I suggested in reply #451, the proper way ( IMO ) to compare a big cat with a bear in terms of girth or strength is by equal head-and-body length. This is as fair as we can get. In fact, when considering that the cat has a shorter muzzle and a shorter neck, a small advantage falls towards the cat, although not enough to make a fuss over. I will add to this, for an accurate face-off, to determine which of two different species is the superior fighter, to have each of the two species face each other at equal head-and-body length would give us the most honest conclusion. Big cat fans argue that this would not be a fair fight as the bear ( especially a brown bear ) has too great of a weight advantage. Well, I agree that this would not be a fair fight. But then, the purpose of a face-off between two separate species is not to produce a fair fight, but rather to give us an honest conclusion. *I will edit and add: Mother Nature rarely arranges a fair fight.
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