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Post by Montezuma on Jun 26, 2022 1:44:09 GMT -5
The unusual thing about this story ( two posts above by Montezuma ) is that the leopard fought the bear. I wish there were more details. Was this a mother leopard? Was this a big male leopard defending a carcass? Was this a leopard attempting to snatch a bear cub with the mother bear nearby? I guess we will never know. They only just stated that the leopard wad fighting a bear and eventually died as the people witnessed. The leopard was a fully-grown female leopard but no details about the bear.
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Post by brobear on Jun 26, 2022 1:54:34 GMT -5
The unusual thing about this story ( two posts above by Montezuma ) is that the leopard fought the bear. I wish there were more details. Was this a mother leopard? Was this a big male leopard defending a carcass? Was this a leopard attempting to snatch a bear cub with the mother bear nearby? I guess we will never know. They only just stated that the leopard wad fighting a bear and eventually died as the people witnessed. The leopard was a fully-grown female leopard but no details about the bear. So, why would a full-grown female leopard end up fighting against a bear? I will wager that cubs were involved. Either leopard cubs or bear cubs. I will also suggest that the bear was most likely a sloth bear, which would be the least likely to eat the dead leopard. But, that's merely my opinion.
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Post by brobear on Jul 5, 2022 18:25:45 GMT -5
What species of bear might a leopard or a jaguar defeat in a face-off? In my opinion... We must keep in mind that the jaguar does not hunt and kill adult Andean bears. We have only one single known case of a jaguar ambushing and killing an adult female black bear. Only the sun bear is smaller than the Andean bear and we have ( to my knowledge ) no confirmed account of a leopard ever killing a full-grown male sun bear. We must keep in mind that a face-off means face-to-face confrontation. A giant panda is probably stronger than an Andean bear and probably has a stronger bite-force that a jaguar. The sun bear also has a terrific bite force, long canine teeth, and monstrous claws. I believe that the smallest of all living bears, the sun bear, stands a descent 50/50 chance ( or better ) against either a leopard or a jaguar. All other bear species ( full-grown male ) has better than a 50% chance of walking away from a confrontation with a leopard or a jaguar. I will add; black bears, both the moon bear and the American variety, are greatly underestimated. *Note: by "walking away" I mean that the big cat would fail in killing the bear. The big cat's objective would be to kill the bear ( else there would be no confrontation ). The bear's only objective would be to survive the confrontation by defending himself until the big cat gives-up and walks away. *The big cat is the victor if he kills the bear ( because that is his objective ). If the bear is not killed, the bear is the victor. His objective is to survive a confrontation with the predator. _________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Basic Rule of Thumb: a cat needs a substantial weight advantage over a bear to defeat a bear in a fair fight.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jul 28, 2022 5:35:12 GMT -5
I think that any bear species can successfully fend off a leopard but a jaguar is on a different level. Large males can come close to 330lbs and are the strongest extant cats p4p due to them being extremely short and stocky. They also have a tendency to bite into the head of their prey to finish the fight quickly, so I think a sun bear doesn't stand a chance. But all other bear species could also fend off a jaguar in my opinion; American black bears/Asian black bears/giant pandas/spectacled bears are all heavier than even the biggest jaguar populations on average and they are bears, the best and most proficient grapplers out of all mammalian carnivores.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 28, 2022 15:29:31 GMT -5
/\ I think you forgot to include the infamous sloth bear to the list .
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jul 29, 2022 3:04:47 GMT -5
OldGreenGrolar I did that on purpose as they are proven to be tough opponents for Bengal tigers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 3:26:06 GMT -5
I think that any bear species can successfully fend off a leopard but a jaguar is on a different level. Large males can come close to 330lbs and are the strongest extant cats p4p due to them being extremely short and stocky. They also have a tendency to bite into the head of their prey to finish the fight quickly, so I think a sun bear doesn't stand a chance. But all other bear species could also fend off a jaguar in my opinion; American black bears/Asian black bears/giant pandas/spectacled bears are all heavier than even the biggest jaguar populations on average and they are bears, the best and most proficient grapplers out of all mammalian carnivores. I think that's a lame answer regarding leopard & jaguars and saying one is on another level is just stupid as if one simply doesn't stand a single chance. As with all hypothetical and real fights it comes to down to many factors. Age, gender, motivation subspecies/population, ... You name it. The jaguar might be the strongest pound for pound but that doesn't mean a 50kg Central American male jaguar will be stronger than a much bigger Persian male leopard. Vice versa a big South American jaguar will be stronger than a let's say a Javan male leopard. To put things in perspective; a comparison between a male jaguar and male cougar from Belize: And a comparison between a young Siberian tigress and a male Amur leopard: In this case it seems logic that this particular leopard would be more successful in repelling a bear attack than that particular jaguar.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jul 29, 2022 3:34:04 GMT -5
Large jaguars weigh close to 150kg, so they are obviously on another level compared to large cougars or leopards and that was my reference point. No cougar or leopard would stand a chance against such an individual, so there is nothing stupid about it, you just need a functional brain to realize that.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 29, 2022 5:35:00 GMT -5
OldGreenGrolar I did that on purpose as they are proven to be tough opponents for Bengal tigers. I understand where you are coming from . Sloth bears are aggressive and have won in skirmish fights although doubt they can win against a Bengal tiger in a serious fight to death. Now let’s imagine two scenarios: 1)a sloth bear being drop into the Amazonian jungles where jaguars and spectacled bears live how will they do? 2)A hundred sloth bears drop in random parts of Africa.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 29, 2022 5:50:27 GMT -5
Welcome back @shortridge .
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Post by brobear on Jul 29, 2022 5:57:16 GMT -5
( adult males compared ), I'm sure that the largest leopard is bigger and stronger than the smallest jaguar. In fact, the biggest tiger is bigger and stronger than the smallest brown bear of some barren land. But we should be looking at a more even/fair match-up.
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Post by brobear on Jul 30, 2022 2:56:03 GMT -5
Large carnivores as potential predators of sun bears shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/1216/large-carnivores-potential-predators-bears www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan-Kamler/publication/338489937_Large_carnivores_as_potential_predators_of_sun_bears/links/5e1e1c2545851536bfe636cf/Large-carnivores-as-potential-predators-of-sun-bears.pdf Large carnivores as potential predators of sun bears Abstract: Sun bears (Helarctos malayanus) have a wide distribution in Southeast Asia, but little is known about their natural predators. During a camera-trap survey in 2018 in Htamanthi Wildlife Sanctuary, Myanmar, we photographed a male leopard (Panthera pardus) carrying a sun bear cub by the throat. This is the first reported case of probable predation on sun bears by leopards, and only their second confirmed predator. A literature review showed that consumption of sun bears and Asiatic black bears (Ursus thibetanus) by tigers (P. tigris) was widespread in Southeast Asia, whereas consumption of both bear species by leopards and dholes (Cuon alpinus) was less common. Outside of Southeast Asia, tigers and leopards, but not dholes, were shown to kill or consume other bear species. Future research should examine interspecific relationships between sun bears and large felids to better understand what, if any, impacts large felids have on sun bear ecology.
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Post by brobear on Jul 30, 2022 2:57:18 GMT -5
Adult male leopard (Panthera pardus) carrying a sun bear (Helarctos malayanus) cub by the throat in Htamanthi Wildlife Sanctuary, northwestern Myanmar, 2018. Note the pair of canine puncture holes on the cub’s throat, which likely represents the kill bite.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 3:17:29 GMT -5
Large jaguars weigh close to 150kg, so they are obviously on another level compared to large cougars or leopards and that was my reference point. No cougar or leopard would stand a chance against such an individual, so there is nothing stupid about it, you just need a functional brain to realize that. Why would you pick the heaviest specimen of its species? That's an outlier and not a perfect representation of its species. Also, following your logic, no jaguar can take on a lioness or a tigress. After all lionesses can way up to 185kg, much heavier than the largest jaguar. Meanwhile there are lionesses perfectly in the jaguar's weight class: You could say a lioness will usually win, that makes pefect sense given the global weights. But one must not ignore weight overlap. As I said before, multiple factors will determine the outcome. In the case above it's primarily due to the population since the lions appear smaller here. You bring up a the largest jaguaress and these lionesses would prevail. This time the deciding factor being gender. So your statement of bears having trouble with jaguars but not with leopards is just not entirely correct. A sun bear for example will have less trouble with a Mexican jaguar than a Persian leopard. Again due to factors.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jul 30, 2022 3:47:15 GMT -5
I picked outliners on both ends, it's not like I compared a 150kg jaguar to an average cougar or leopard but to the very few specimens that are around the 100kg mark, I am interested in the best individuals a species has to offer. So yes, a large 180kg lioness/tigress would eventually be a good deal bigger than a maximum sized jaguar and a large sun bear would have a much easier time fending off a large cougar/leopard than fending off a large jaguar.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 5:50:52 GMT -5
I picked outliners on both ends, it's not like I compared a 150kg jaguar to an average cougar or leopard but to the very few specimens that are around the 100kg mark, I am interested in the best individuals a species has to offer. So yes, a large 180kg lioness/tigress would eventually be a good deal bigger than a maximum sized jaguar and a large sun bear would have a much easier time fending off a large cougar/leopard than fending off a large jaguar. There's currently no such thing as a 150kg jaguar but I get your point. However, I'd focus on average figures since those include both below-average and bigger individuals. For jaguars the average sits around 100kg for the biggest population. For leopards this is at least 70kg for Persian males in northern Iran. There's no denying that the biggest jaguar will be more difficult to repel/beat than the biggest leopard/cougar, but all three of them at around the same size will pose an equal amount of difficulty. You're simply putting the jaguar in a tier that doesn't exist. Studies show that the difference is quite marginal between all big cats and the jaguar's mighty bite force has been proven to not be that super high. All big cats have a dangerous bite force high enough to skull bite other animals.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Aug 6, 2022 9:23:26 GMT -5
Yes, I agree; at equal sizes the differences are maginal and in the single-digit percentage areas but for me the jaguar stands out among the other big cats just as the tiger. However, 150kg jaguars can and do exist; the Lopez male captured by Hoogesteijn and his staff weighed 148kg and another unnamed male in the Northern Pantanal region weighed 142kg.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 18:00:42 GMT -5
Yes, I agree; at equal sizes the differences are maginal and in the single-digit percentage areas but for me the jaguar stands out among the other big cats just as the tiger. However, 150kg jaguars can and do exist; the Lopez male captured by Hoogesteijn and his staff weighed 148kg and another unnamed male in the Northern Pantanal region weighed 142kg. That jaguar captured by Hoogesteijn is a record one and according to jaguar fans in a period where Pantanal jaguars were supposedly smaller than they are now. Yet no Pantanal jaguar has surpassed his weight. This is an indicator that they're as big as they were back then i.e. the average weight for a male is still circa 100kg instead of 110-115kg. Still the record one is close to 150kg so I guess 150kg is achievable. The differences between all (big) cats at parity are so small it'll come down to the individual basically. I just wonder what makes the jaguar stand out though? It appears built for battle but the biggest population lives an easy live without too much trouble overall. Fights between males are rare and they tolerate each other quite well compared to the other big cats. Some even form coalitions. Honestly, all the big cats stand out hence why they're top tier except the cheetah. IMO it varies from population. For example, the dark-maned lions from the Ethiopian highlands are extremely robust, same goes for tigers from Kaziranga National Park. For leopards this applies to the ones from the Congo Basin or northern Iran. For the jaguar this is undoubtedly the Pantanal jaguar and perhaps Venezuelan jaguars from Los Llanos. Pick the single most impressive individual from each population and scale them at parity, pretty sure the result will be close.
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Post by brobear on Aug 7, 2022 6:32:10 GMT -5
If we were to compare a leopard and a jaguar at equal HB length, the jaguar would ( IMO ) prove to be stockier, heavier, and stronger. However, the leopard will likely be some quicker and could jump some higher and further.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2022 17:17:59 GMT -5
If we were to compare a leopard and a jaguar at equal HB length, the jaguar would ( IMO ) prove to be stockier, heavier, and stronger. However, the leopard will likely be some quicker and could jump some higher and further. Some time ago I created two tables consisting of some body measurements of male leopards and male jaguars of similar weights. It turned out male leopards can have greater body measurements than male jaguars. The focus was chest circumference since that's the best way to calculate stockiness and there's only one protocol to measure one's chest circumference. All the data originates from scientific papers. The 64kg Persian male leopard was a young individual so again being from a big (and/or impressive) population certainly can make a difference.
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