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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 3, 2020 18:18:04 GMT -5
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Post by theundertaker45 on Apr 3, 2020 18:24:52 GMT -5
The principle of strength is strongly connected to the ways of applying it.
The rhino doesn't have flexible forelimbs and is only able to generate power by accelerating his weight, doing a locomotory movement and then generating force upon the object it hits. A bear has every tool necessary to counter this procedure: bipedal balance, dense bones, dexterous/flexible forelimbs, advanced mobility and strong jaws.
The brown bear is able to apply his strength differently, in a much more effective way. Imagine two humans of similar size fighting against each other but one of them has his hands tied behind his back. Theoretically they should be equal in strength, however, one of them isn't able to fulfill his full potential as he has limited dexterity/mobility. That's why the other one would dominate every fight, he can see his opponent charging towards him, apply an effective counter by making use of his forelimbs and win almost every fight.
You are right that a rhino wouldn't be far off from a bear in terms of strength, however, the rhino doesn't have any possibility of applying it as proficiently as the bear. It has to work with his dead weight. That's why most herbivores are/were much bigger than the carnivores sharing their habitat. They need their size in order to be able to defend themselves, that's the only tool they have and if that gets taken away, they will end up dead most of the time, especially against the strongest mammalian carnivore on a lbs for lbs basis who is basically built for fighting.
Like I said in the comparison thread before, Kodiak bear vs Sumatran rhino at average weights would actually be a really close and interesting matchup.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 3, 2020 18:35:36 GMT -5
Great analysis Taker. Great points. Very detailed. Guess what? Its very hard to convince someone in these forums, but you did. So, at weight parity, i am going with the bear now 6/7 out of 10 times. Not more than that.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Apr 3, 2020 18:45:03 GMT -5
I would have also been fine with you favouring the rhino at parity; our evaluations are opinions, not facts. I've analysed and repeatedly watched countless videos of carnivores taking on herbivores and their dexterous forelimbs enable them to overpower opponents that should be much stronger theoretically. But in reality it is all about technique and the way of applying things.
You can have a track with the toughest turns and twists, however, a guy like Lewis Hamilton or Michael Schumacher will master it. You can have a wall of eight defenders protecting the goal, however, a guy like Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi will find the back of the net. You can have a piece of music consisting of the most difficult passages, however, a guy like Lang Lang or Vladimir Horowitz will play it perfectly.
That's my point and that's the reason behind herbivores attaing the huge sizes they have; carnivores are specialized in tackling them and that's why they need to make up their incapability of defending themselves with size imo.
Give the track some bumps and roadblocks, increase the height of the defenders by 2 feet and adjust the suspension of every piano key differently; then the previously mentioned legends will certainly get into trouble. That's the principle of size distorting things; explained in a metaphorical manner.
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Post by brobear on May 11, 2020 6:16:55 GMT -5
Improved and revised version of Kodiak Bear vs Sumatran Rhinoceros
My nickel is on the biggest of the big grizzlies. I am 100% against spectator blood-sports; but damn, I would just have to sit still and watch this one.
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Post by brobear on Mar 11, 2021 5:29:21 GMT -5
From reply #27 and #28: The hide of a Sumatran rhinoceros is on average .63 inches thick. The hide of a walrus is on average 3.94 inches thick. Polar bears have been known to kill full-grown walruses. Therefore, the rhino's thick hide will not keep him safe from the teeth and claws of a brown bear. Also note; according to historical records, brown bears were victorious more often than not against fighting bulls, which are more agile than a rhinoceros.
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Post by brobear on Nov 12, 2021 3:25:45 GMT -5
The family tree:
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 12, 2021 5:06:14 GMT -5
The only extant bear that can do better against a Sumatran rhino than a Kodiak bear will be a male polar bear from Foxe Basin.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2021 0:20:21 GMT -5
The only extant bear that can do better against a Sumatran rhino than a Kodiak bear will be a male polar bear from Foxe Basin. weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Temperature-Sunshine-region-sumatra-id,Indonesia One thing to take into account is that on average, the temperatures are always high. The coldest month is September with an average maximum temperature of 30°C (86°F). *The victor of a fight between the Sumatran rhino and Kodiak bear could be greatly affected by the climatic conditions of where the fight takes place. *Even more so if the brown bear is replaced by a polar bear.
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Post by brobear on Feb 24, 2023 5:18:48 GMT -5
Improved and revised version of Kodiak Bear vs Sumatran Rhinoceros
My nickel is on the biggest of the big grizzlies. I am 100% against spectator blood-sports; but damn, I would just have to sit still and watch this one. Three years ago, I voted for the bear. My thoughts today is a 50/50 fight which could easily swing either way; not always with the same outcome. Brute vs Brute. Samson vs Hercules.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Mar 11, 2023 5:05:41 GMT -5
The Sumatran rhino still has zero votes here.
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Post by brobear on Mar 11, 2023 5:09:19 GMT -5
The Sumatran rhino still has zero votes here. Looking at the votes; actually, I did vote draw. This would absolutely be the fight of the century. Two absolute powerhouse adversaries.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Mar 11, 2023 5:14:00 GMT -5
/\ Since you voted a draw, the larger male polar bear from Foxe Basin should beat a Sumatran rhino more often than not.
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Post by brobear on Mar 11, 2023 5:24:22 GMT -5
/\ Since you voted a draw, the larger male polar bear from Foxe Basin should beat a Sumatran rhino more often than not. Possibly; but a polar bear would have zero experience with a fast-moving quadruped as heavy as himself. This adversary is not belly-to-the-ice on flippers.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Mar 11, 2023 7:11:22 GMT -5
The polar bear fights other male polar bears which are almost as heavy as themselves so that counts. And the polar bear having predatory skills can learn to take on the sumatran rhino.
Anyway. I voted for the kodiak bear, the strongest bear pound to pound.
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Post by brobear on Nov 15, 2023 3:52:53 GMT -5
My nickel is on the biggest of the big grizzlies. I am 100% against spectator blood-sports; but damn, I would just have to sit still and watch this one. Three years ago, I voted for the bear. My thoughts today is a 50/50 fight which could easily swing either way; not always with the same outcome. Brute vs Brute. Samson vs Hercules. The more I look at this picture, the more convinced I am that my original thoughts were correct. I doubt that this smallest of living rhinos is any stronger that a bull bison. Brown bears of less girth than a Kodiak have been known to kill a bull bison. It is true that a rhinoceros has a thick hide. But polar bears have been known to kill walrus, whose hide is much thicker than that of a rhinoceros. Let's keep in mind that the bear is able to grapple, while the rhino is firmly planted to the earth on four hooves.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 15, 2023 5:14:02 GMT -5
A rhinoceros like that would be a formidable opponent even though it is the smallest of its kind; unfortunately there aren't many wild Sumatran rhinos left. Their diversity in size isn't really significant, so I think average vs average would be the most logical way to go. Best vs best doesn't make sense; the brown bear is one of the most thoroughly documented animals in hunting literature and in scientific literature and we know what the size potential looks like. The same can't be said for the Sumatran rhino, understudied in comparison and I don't even know whether there is a proper weight sample; there is a weight range and that's about it. Size difference then would probably be 2:1 in favor of the rhino; that's a bit much but I think the bear could handle that to at least have a positive track record face-to-face. I don't know by how much but I'd also wager on the bear to find a way to put down the rhino more often than not just like you said initially.
I think we'd need a proper investigation in how rhinos stack up to large bulls on a proportional basis; what I noticed from pictures at least is that Sumatran and black rhinos look a bit more athletic and not as brawny/bulky as Indian/white rhinos to my eye but I could be wrong.
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