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Post by nocapakabl on Sept 22, 2021 0:39:33 GMT -5
What length are the humerus and femur examples of the bears? At equal head-and-body length, both the brown bear and the cave bear would outweigh the saber-toothed cat. Overall, these bears have greater girth; greater strength. The cave bears as i recall were in the 490mm range, all the measurements were taken from per christiansens collection; they are adult males. These calculations are at same shoulder heights but a bear would generally be taller than a similar sized smilodont so the difference would be less than shown, but the smilodon would still have the edge. The bear's would most definitely carry more mass at equal length if we're referring to specimens bulking up for hibernation; smilodon would have the edge otherwise using bears post hibernation.
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Post by nocapakabl on Sept 22, 2021 0:49:55 GMT -5
Here's an image to illustrate my point; the bear on the left is top physical shape, he carries just as much fat as any predatory big cat but is much more robust, but he'd be outmatched by say a smilodon populator by a decent amount. The bear on the right is very obese and will not be able to hunt properly, and is very hendered if a fight or hunt takes place, but he'll still outweigh any big cat by a gigantic amount as equal HB lengths.
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2021 1:38:47 GMT -5
- Smilodon Producciones One of the many versions of the populator I did in 2019 and had yet to present. To my taste this was the most impressive feline ever. Smilodon populator is an extinct species of felid ′′ saber teeth ", belonging to the extinct subfamily of macairodontinae that lived during Pleistocene. It is the type species of the genus Smilodon, being discovered its first fossils in the Santa Lagoa region of Brazil by Danish naturalist Peter Wilhelm Lund in 1842. It first appeared in South America about a million years ago and became extinct about 10 years ago. He was older than his American ′′ cousin ′′ Smilodon fatalis and possessed a highly developed chest and front legs. This large cat was 1,25 m tall ( 49.21 inches) on his shoulders, and an average weight of about 370 kg, ( 815.71 pounds ) but the largest specimens would exceed 400 kg, ( 881.85 pounds ) making him one of the greatest felids to ever exist .. Smilodon populator is likely to hunt in groups, due to the great development of his legs muscles and his robust body, he could not run at high speeds to catch his prey, but if they would have a good acceleration in short sections, probably a reduced group ambush to an unsuspecting animal to quickly jump on it. They were believed to hunt herbivores from sinners passing through Macrauchenias to pups or young proboscideos. They immobilized the chosen victim with the powerful muscles of their legs and then cut his throat with his long saber teeth up to 18 cm long. These long teeth were relatively fragile, so they couldn't be used until the dam was fully still or would run the risk of breaking with the struggle, something they were responsible for avoiding the strong front legs. Fossils have been found from several different individuals, very close to each other and to the remains of pastry animals, which is a clear indication of social behavior in this species. His remains were found in Argentina (7 collections), Bolivia (2), Brazil (14), Chile (1), Venezuela (2). The Species Smilodon Neogaeus, Lund 1879 (taxon 264380 ) then was recognized as synonymous.
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2021 3:08:52 GMT -5
Reply #341 - Both bears pictured are Alaskan peninsula brown bears. Bear on the left perhaps Spring or Summer. Bear on the right late Autumn and ready for his Winter's sleep. Quote: Here's an image to illustrate my point; the bear on the left is top physical shape, he carries just as much fat as any predatory big cat but is much more robust, but he'd be outmatched by say a smilodon populator by a decent amount. *Average Smilodon populator: ( Reply #171 )- quote: According to most reliable sources Smilodon populator reached an average weight of ~660lbs (300kg) based on the fossils being found so far. This would place S. populator within the weight range of an Ussuri brown bear. The site above places his average at 815 pounds. When estimating the weight of a prehistoric animal we have ( IMO ) roughly 40% science and 60% guesswork. In any case; the average ( non-obese ) weight of an Alaskan brown bear: Average fully grown male Alaska Peninsula brown bear (9 years+) - 857.6 pounds. So, what gives you the impression that this bear is outmatched by the saber-toothed cat?
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2021 3:19:47 GMT -5
( reply #148 )- -Smilodon populator: max. size of 230cm in length, 120cm at the shoulders and a weight of 400-450kg. Smilodon populator - Head-and-body-length: 230 cm = 7 feet 6 inches. Alaskan brown bear average - Head-and-body length: 8 feet 9 inches. S. populator shoulder height: 120cm at the shoulders = 3 feet 11 inches. Alaskan brown bear shoulder height - 4 feet 6 inches.
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Post by nocapakabl on Sept 22, 2021 3:19:54 GMT -5
brobearI was referring to proportional robusticity, of course. An average sized fully grown katmai brown bear would exceed a smilodont in robusticity taking into account the massive size disparity, but not with 6 year old+ brown bears.
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2021 3:28:03 GMT -5
Against a Ussuri brown bear, we have a debatable face-off. But those bog salmon-feeders are simply too big for any cat.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 22, 2021 5:12:19 GMT -5
Against a Ussuri brown bear, we have a debatable face-off. But those bog salmon-feeders are simply too big for any cat. I agree with you. Not just the coastal brown bear but the kodiak and polar bear are too big for any cat. American black bears and smilodon fatalis overlap in weights. The average smilodon fatalis will be heavier than the average American black bear.
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2021 5:18:41 GMT -5
Against a Ussuri brown bear, we have a debatable face-off. But those bog salmon-feeders are simply too big for any cat. I agree with you. Not just the coastal brown bear but the kodiak and polar bear are too big for any cat. American black bears and smilodon fatalis overlap in weights. The average smilodon fatalis will be heavier than the average American black bear. Smildon fatalis had a similar weight with the inland grizzly. Smildon gracilis was similar in weight with the black bear.
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Post by brobear on Sept 22, 2021 7:29:07 GMT -5
Quote: ( brobear ): At equal head-and-body length, both the brown bear and the cave bear would outweigh the saber-toothed cat. Overall, these bears have greater girth; greater strength. Quote: ( nocapakabl ): The bear's would most definitely carry more mass at equal length if we're referring to specimens bulking up for hibernation; smilodon would have the edge otherwise using bears post hibernation. *At equal head-and-body-length, both the brown bear and the cave bear have greater girth/weight than any cat species Summer, Autumn, Winter, and Spring. ( see Reply #1 ). *Second largest Alaskan peninsula brown bear on record ( according to Boone and crockett ) - Girth: 60 inches/5 feet ( 152.40 cm ) neck circumference. 7 feet ( 213.36 cm ) around torso. 34 inches ( 86.36 cm ) around foreleg. Reply #26 and #27 on topic: Alaskan Peninsula Brown Bear.
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 2:51:17 GMT -5
www.researchgate.net/publication/7531697_Body_size_ofSmilodon_Mammalia_Felidae The body masses of the three large saber-toothed machairodontines, Smilodon gracilis, S. fatalis, and S. populator, were estimated on the basis of 36 osteological variables from the appendicular skeleton of extant felids. A new model is introduced that takes the reliability of the predictor equations into account, since mass estimates are more reliable when computed from multiple variables per bone. At a body mass range of 55-100 kg, ( 220 pounds ) S. gracilis was comparable in size to extant jaguars, and S. fatalis was found to be somewhat lighter than previously assumed, with a body mass range of 160-280 kg, ( 600 pounds ) similar to that of the largest extant felid, the Siberian tiger. Smilodon populator was substantially heavier and larger than any extant felid, with a body mass range of 220-360 kg. ( 794 pounds ) Particularly large specimens of S. populator almost certainly exceeded 400 kg in body mass. The differences from previous estimates are most likely caused by differences in the databases used for mass estimation.
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 3:00:24 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 3:07:27 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/science/saber-toothed-tiger.html?.?mc=aud_dev&ad-keywords=auddevgate&gclid=CjwKCAjwy7CKBhBMEiwA0Eb7ahdiU0JVytrlsHNt2NypxqlnShnlHMbYVl4PiKzootrs-eqbF3TPNhoCbXAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds They Knew Saber-Toothed Tigers Were Big. Then They Found This Skull. When the curator mentioned a huge saber-toothed tiger skull stored behind the scenes of the National Museum of Natural History in Montevideo, Uruguay, Aldo Manzuetti had to see for himself. The skull belonged to Smilodon populator. Extinct for about 10,000 years, the heavily muscled species once Hulk-smashed its way through South American fauna in the Pleistocene. To picture a normal individual, start with an African lion. Then double its size and add giant fangs. But this one wasn’t normal. The skull was 16 inches long, making previous large specimens from the species look small. “I thought I was doing something wrong,” said Mr. Manzuetti, a doctoral student in paleontology at Uruguay’s University of the Republic. He was using the head to infer the likely size of the animal’s body. “I checked the results a lot of times, and only after doing that I realized I hadn’t made any mistakes.” His analysis showed the skull sat atop a beast that likely tipped the scales at around 960 pounds. The specimen’s existence, he and colleagues reported earlier this month in the journal Alcheringa, suggests that the largest saber-toothed tigers might have been able to take down giant plant-eaters, heavy as pickup trucks, that researchers had thought were untouchable. Ricardo Praderi, an amateur collector, first dug up the prehistoric predator’s skull in September 1989 in southern Uruguay. The site had otherwise yielded only the fossils of herbivores. He then donated it to the archives of the national museum, Mr. Manzuetti said. “I would love to find something like that,” said Margaret Lewis, a paleontologist at Stockton University in New Jersey who did not participate in the research. Scientists knew South America was haunted by the ghosts of vanished Pleistocene carnivores. Beyond Smilodon populator, known since 1842 from fossils in a Brazilian cave, the continent also hosted another smaller Smilodon species, as well as jaguars, lions and Arctotherium, the biggest bear ever known. The saber-tooths were cats, not tigers, although the more fearsome name has stuck in many settings. The first humans to settle the continent, God help them, arrived at around the same time. But the top tier of possible prey — armored armadillos comparable to Volkswagens, lumbering mastodons, the 12-foot-tall ground sloth Megatherium — would have challenged even the fiercest hunter.
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 3:23:38 GMT -5
animals.fandom.com/wiki/Ussuri_Brown_Bear The Ussuri brown bear (Ursus arctos lasiotus), also known as the black grizzly is a population of the brown bear. One of the largest brown bears, Ussuri brown bears approach the Kodiak brown bear in size. It is very similar to the Kamchatka brown bear, though it has a more elongated skull, a less elevated forehead, somewhat longer nasal bones and less separated zygomatic arches, and is somewhat darker in color, with some individuals being completely black, a fact which once led to the now refuted speculation that black individuals were hybrids of brown bears and Asian black bears. Adult males have skulls measuring 38.7 cm ( 15.2 in ) long and 23.5 cm ( 9.3 in ) wide. They can occasionally reach greater sizes than their Kamchatka counterparts: the largest skull measured by Sergej Ognew ( 1931 ) was only slightly smaller than that of the largest Kodiak brown bear ( the largest subspecies of brown bears ) on record at the time. In Hokkaido, during the first 57 years of the 20th century, 141 people died from bear attacks, and another 300 were injured. The Sankebetsu brown bear incident (三毛別羆事件 Sankebetsu Higuma jiken?), which occurred in December 1915 at Sankei in the Sankebetsu district was the worst bear attack in Japanese history, and resulted in the deaths of seven people and the injuring of three others. The perpetrator was a 380 kg ( 838 pounds ) and 2.7 m ( 8 feet 10 inches ) tall brown bear, which twice attacked the village of Tomamae, returning to the area the night after its first attack during the prefuneral vigil for the earlier victims. The incident is frequently referred to in modern Japanese as bear incidents, and is believed to be responsible for the Japanese perception of bears as man-eaters.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 23, 2021 3:38:55 GMT -5
While the average male Ussuri brown bear equals to the average weight of smilodon populator, the former will begin to dominate at upper weights.
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 3:49:39 GMT -5
While the average male Ussuri brown bear equals to the average weight of smilodon populator, the former will begin to dominate at upper weights. It appears to me, from our findings, that there is little difference in the size of the typical Ussuri brown bear and the typical Smilodon populator. The same holds true when we compare them at their maximum sizes. It would be truly interesting if we could get a fairly accurate weight comparison of a brown bear and Smilodon populator at equal head-and-body-length. ( bear at Spring or Summer weight ).
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 4:21:32 GMT -5
I had began discussing "Smilodon" under the topic "Pleistocene Grizzly" but I have decided that this discussion deserves it's own page. First posted by Tigerluver ( biologist ). wildfact.com/forum/ Smilodon populator - A new fossil and questions about bone robusticity to cursoriality, among other issues Browsing through some older document, I found one of great insight to Smilodon fatalis and S. populator morphology, Relationships between North and South American Smilodon by Björn Kurtén and Lars Werdelin. The differences between the forms were analyzed by this work, and you can read up on it in the attachment. Postcranial anatomy interests me the most. For one, I found a record size humerus of 410 mm. Isometrically comparing to the bear humerus of 400.5 mm, this specimen would be about 470 kg (a post on p. 1 explains why bears may be better isometric basis for this species). This humerus puts S. populator back at the top of felid weights. But there's a caveat. The same document found that "the forelimb of S. populator is somewhat longer, relative to the hindlimb, than in S. fatalis. Such a lengthening of the forelimb is a characteristic of the open plains." An example of this observation is the fact that lion has a proportionally longer humerus and ulna compared to the hindlimb bones, being the only big cat living almost exclusively in the open plains. This morphological characteristic results in overestimation of mass from all bone measurements when comparing to a more average proportional individual. Bone length overestimates because the bone is disproportionately long, and width dimensions overestimate because the width is more for accommodating running stress than muscle in such cases. The brown bear has much shorter frontlimbs than hindlimbs are compared to S. populator, and a bit shorter proportions compared to S. fatalis. In this form, S. fatalis is more robust and bear-like than S. populator, but neither were probably as muscular as a bear, but rather some of the bone width was more for running stress similarly to how lions bones have widened so greatly as compared to other cats. With that, the S. populator estimation using the brown bear as the base is probably an overestimate, or faulty at the least. S. fatalis reconstructions from a brown bear may be a bit less of an overestimate. Smilodon would lack the posterior weight the bear would in the this areas due to the FL/HL discrepancy, and thus the two species are not analogous, at least for humerus calculations. It is very possible the opposite effects of mass estimation would occur if a brown bear femur is being compared to the proportionately shorter Smilodon femur. Smilodon's femur is proportionately much larger than its tibia compared to all pantherines by a long ways. Its humerus is also proportionately larger than its ulna, a ratio only matched by the very robust leopard and jaguar. The longer proximal bones is indicative of the fact that Smilodon is indeed much more heavily built than the lion and the tiger, and somewhat more heavyset than the leopard and jaguar. From this, maybe the best route of Smilodon reconstruction would be one width dimensions and/or the length dimension of the bone, either allometrically or isometrically compared to only jaguars and leopards. The type of bone being used would also have to be taken into account to predict the accuracy of the estimation. Forelimb estimates may be overestimates somewhat, and vice versa for hindlimb estimates. *Quote: The brown bear has much shorter frontlimbs than hindlimbs are compared to S. populator, and a bit shorter proportions compared to S. fatalis. In this form, S. fatalis is more robust and bear-like than S. populator, but neither were probably as muscular as a bear, but rather some of the bone width was more for running stress similarly to how lions bones have widened so greatly as compared to other cats.
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 4:47:23 GMT -5
ielc.libguides.com/sdzg/factsheets/extinctsaber-toothedcat/diet Size of Smilodon teeth and robustness of skeleton indicates prey would have included large mammals such as bison, giant ground sloths, possibly young mammoths and mastodonts, horses, camels. Oxygen isotopes preserved in tooth enamel show that S. gracilis in Florida ate browsing animals such as large pig-like Platygonus and large-headed llamas, Hemiauchenia. (Feranec 2002) Smilodon probably avoided eating bone or contacting it with its teeth. Microscopic study of tooth wear finds few grooves and pits in teeth indicating a diet of flesh (Annyonge 1996) (Van Valkenburgh et al 1990) Smilodon did not break its knife-like canines any more than it broke its other teeth. Probably didn't use canines to help restrain prey, in contrast to modern lions (Van Valkenburgh and Hertel 1993). *Your thoughts?
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 23, 2021 10:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Sept 23, 2021 16:42:28 GMT -5
I doubt that Smilodon preyed upon Glyptodon. Not a good choice for those killing tools. Neither do I believe that the saber-toothed cat hunted giants such as mammoths or elephant-sized giant ground sloths. Smilodon had to wrestle-down his prey, immobilize it, and then slice it's throat. He probably hunted ( IMO ) horses, camels, and perhaps bison.
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