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Post by brobear on Aug 25, 2021 7:00:42 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/topic-smilodon-populator Quote - Based on measurements of the long bones in the new skull, Manzuetti and his team were able to estimate just how big the cat truly was: Up to 436 kg. That is the weight of a grand piano." The biggest ever S. populator weight estimate: 436 kilograms is equal to 961.22 pounds - still within the weight-range of the Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Aug 26, 2021 3:23:33 GMT -5
The popular notion is that a Smilodon would be physically stronger in "over-all" brute strength than a brown bear of weight-parity. I am clueless as to where this popular conclusion came from, but when I read post #288, my own personal conclusions seem to be standing. ( IMO ), Smilodon fatalis and populator were stronger than any pantherine of equal head-and-body length. However, compare him to a brown bear and the contest ends differently. Probably, the great saber-toothed cat would be closer to bear-strength than to lion-strength... but that is the best I could give him... in "over-all" brute strength. In pulling strength - by this I mean latching-on with those retractable claws and pulling with his arms - Smilodon probably has the bear beat. But, in pushing strength, the brown bear comes out on top. In a face-to-face confrontation, we can only speculate and place our guess. I'm sure that it comes to little surprise that I would wager on the bear. However, in an ambush attack, and Smilodon was indeed an ambush predator, then the advantage falls towards the monster-cat.
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Post by brobear on Aug 27, 2021 5:38:02 GMT -5
Just for the record, thus far, I have yet to see any evidence of a cave lion ever killing an adult male cave bear. No evidence of a cave lion ever killing a brown bear. No evidence of either an American lion or Smilodon killing any species of bear. In a nut-shell, we have no fossil evidence of any prehistoric cat preying on bears other that the European cave lion hunting cave bear cubs.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 28, 2021 7:35:20 GMT -5
![](http://www.michaelsoong.ca/images/projects/MichaelSoong_project_smilodon_2.jpg) Comparison of three sabre tooth cat species.
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Post by brobear on Aug 29, 2021 2:17:08 GMT -5
In a face-to-face confrontation, we can only speculate and place our guess. I'm sure that it comes to little surprise that I would wager on the bear. However, in an ambush attack, and Smilodon was indeed an ambush predator, then the advantage falls towards the monster-cat. But, in a face-off, the smilodon's "weapons of mass destruction" cannot be put into play until his antagonist is immobilized. Against a heavy struggling adversary, the Smilodon might break a tooth, if not both of those long canines that gives him fame. But it would be near impossible for the saber-toothed cat to completely immobilize a brown bear. The bear is every bit as strong, and probably stronger, than the big cat. Remember that a brown bear has that shoulder hump of muscles which reinforces his massive upper-body strength. Neither can the Smilodon claim to be the superior grappler. During the struggle, the bear is free to use both teeth and claws; and he will. I'm sure that any big cat fan can manifest his own "reasons" why Smilodon would defeat the brown bear. Smilodon populator is their "Great Felidae Hope" - the best they have to toss into the "Bear vs Big Cat Arena." Funny thing is, when providing a Smilodon vs bear face-off, I like to use the bear who is all-around equal in size with the biggest of the big cats - the Ussuri brown bear. Not the Kodiak nor the polar bear. I would wager a heavy bet on the "black grizzly." ![](https://i.imgur.com/drfPHFU.png)
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Post by brobear on Aug 29, 2021 2:30:14 GMT -5
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011412 Extant large cats, when killing large prey, use a prolonged suffocating bite to the throat or nose. This crushing bite adds a third point of contact and supports the forelimbs in immobilizing prey. By contrast, sabertooth cats would have killed more quickly with slashing bites to the throat, that could not have assisted greatly or at all in holding the prey. Additionally, because the elongate canines were relatively vulnerable to fracture, it would have been critical to minimize prey struggling and position the killing bite carefully to avoid contact with bone. This likely selected for enhanced forelimb strength in S. fatalis.
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Post by brobear on Aug 29, 2021 2:36:07 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ According to GrizzlyClaws: I don't feel really competent in this domain, maybe @tigerluver could do you a favor about the limbs comparison. But from what I read in some paper, some Smilodon populator specimens got its limb robusticity exceeded that of the Brown bear. Let's us take a look about the comparison of the entire skeleton. IMO, S.populator could have slightly upper hand in term of the limb bones. However, the torso domain would still go to the Brown bear. As anatomically, the bear got quite different body structure from feline as a plantigrade animal, it has more centered toward the leverage of the torso. ![](https://i.imgur.com/bPNue8D.jpg) ![](https://i.imgur.com/2JGs828.jpg)
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Post by brobear on Aug 29, 2021 2:39:21 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ According to tigerluver: From Christiansen and Harris (2005) and Campione and Evans (2012) we can show a comparison. Campione and Evans (2012) report a bear humerus 400.5 mm long and 146.25 mm in circumference (robusticity index 0.365). The closest in length humerus reported by Christiansen and Harris (2005) is 387.5 mm long and 155 mm in circumference (robusticity index 0.4). So from this small sample size, Smilodon populator is more robust in the humerus. In the femur, the bear femur was 445.5 mm long and 126.25 mm in circumference (index 0.28). The longest S. populator femur in Christiansen and Harris (2005) was 390.4 mm long and 113.5 mm in circumference (index 0.29). S. populator was front heavy while bears are more balanced so that skews the comparison somewhat. Nonetheless it appears S. populator bone-wise is more robust.
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Post by brobear on Aug 29, 2021 3:51:19 GMT -5
www.jstor.org/stable/4523312 Relationships between North and South American Smilodon Björn Kurtén and Lars Werdelin Abstract Middle and Late Pleistocene representatives of the genus Smilodon in South and North America are here assigned to different species. The South American S. populator, which existed east of the Andes, is distinguished from the North American S. fatalis by the following characters: generally larger size, narrower skull with cranial part elongated relative to facial part, high nasals resulting in nearly straight dorsal profile, marked angle between mastoid and occipital plane, more "graviportal" limb bones, and extremely massive metapodials. Most differences are shown to arise from changes in allometric growth pattern; the difference is on a par with that between other valid and accepted species of carnivores. The detection of sexual dimorphism, the proper use of the ratio diagram, and subspecific versus specific differentiation are discussed. The Smilodon of the west coast region in South America (Peru, Ecuador) is S. fatalis, presumably a member of the Rancholabrean carnivore fauna that entered western South America in the Late Pleistocene.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 8, 2021 11:08:15 GMT -5
Based on this study, male & female Smilodons were the same weight: "When it comes to fossils, sorting males from females can be tricky. "It's hard to tell who's a male and who's a female in the fossil record," said Blaire Van Valkenburgh, a biologist at UCLA who has studied these animals extensively but was not an author on the paper. "Unless you're lucky enough to get some DNA, or you're working with an animal where males have horns and females don't." For species that keep growing into adulthood, simply separating the fossils into two groups by size may not do the trick, either. "It's easy to get a younger, smaller male confused with an older, larger female if you're just dividing them by size," Meachen-Samuels said. The researchers accounted for continued growth using subtle clues from fossilized teeth. "Teeth fill in over time," said Binder. "In young animals the tooth cavity is basically hollow, but as they get older it fills in with dentin. It won't give you an exact age, but it can give you a relative age in terms of young, middle aged or old," Binder added. Meachen-Samuels and Binder x-rayed the lower teeth and jaws of 13 American lions and 19 sabertoothed cats recovered from the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles. To account for growth over time, they measured tooth cavity diameter and plotted it against jaw length for each species. Plotted this way, the data for the American lion fell easily into two groups, regardless of age. The researchers concluded that "the little ones were females and the big ones were males," said Van Valkenburgh. In contrast, sabertoothed cat sizes seemed to be governed solely by age. It would appear that the males were indistinguishable from their mates. "Even by incorporating a measure of age, you can't distinguish males and females," said Meachen-Samuel. phys.org/news/2009-11-male-sabertoothed-cats-pussycats-macho.htmlcarnivora.net/siberian-tiger-v-smilodon-fatalis-female-t10344.html#p193586
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Post by brobear on Sept 8, 2021 11:19:39 GMT -5
Quote: Based on this study, male & female Smilodons were the same weight: This would suggest little if any male vs male fighting over females or territory.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 8, 2021 20:17:47 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Sept 11, 2021 14:21:06 GMT -5
Pleistocene Carnivores: ![](https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/80768540_1301633486689938_8532942884242980864_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=d4oyXP2mc38AX802Vbv&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=a01e0ec6136cb75680e326de14a8fb46&oe=6161E6C4)
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Post by brobear on Sept 12, 2021 3:33:22 GMT -5
Smilodon populator vs Ussuri brown bear would normally be pretty-much a weight-parity face-off contest. Same holds true ( I believe ) for Pleistocene grizzly vs Smilodon fatalis. Who has the greatest upper-body strength? Both have powerful arms, chest, and neck. The bear has a surplus of shoulder muscles. Who is the better grappler? Smilodon is believed to be a superior grappler to todays Pantherines. So are the bears. This would be a wrestling match worth buying tickets to watch. Who has the greater over-all physical strength? This one can be answered. The brown bear has greater hindquarters girth, providing strength and stability. Is there a proof-positive winner to this contest? NO. But, I would wager on the bear for one specific reason. He can fight throughout the entire engagement with both teeth and claws. The big saber-toothed cat must save his greatest weapons for the 'coup de grace'. Those long flat blade-like canines cannot be used during the struggle. The bear, on the other hand, has been known to kill by rapid-bites. The claws of both adversaries can be used, but the bear probably has superior durability. Other advantages of the bear are his plantigrade posture and his superior stamina. I have doubts that Smilodon had any advantages in speed or agility over a brown bear. So, exactly what advantages would it have - at size parity? I realize that Smilodon probably has greater pull-strength with the usage of it's arms and hooked claws. He will use this in a attempt to hold the bear and slice the bear's throat with his knife-like teeth. However, the bear's push strength is probably considerably stronger than the big cat's pull strength, making the 'coup de grace' nearly impossible. *I would wager on the brown bear in 6 or maybe 7 out of 10.
![](https://i.imgur.com/85lVwJY.jpg)
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Post by brobear on Sept 12, 2021 6:04:10 GMT -5
The Ussuri brown bear and Smilodon populator both averaged roughly 660 and pounds. The max S. populator ( recent discovery ) is estimated at 436 kilograms which is equal to 961.22 pounds, which is pretty-much the normal max of this Russian brown bear. Just coincidentally, these two make a great weight-parity face-off debate.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 12, 2021 9:04:33 GMT -5
![](https://live.staticflickr.com/7076/7270086904_3cc0e147e1_b.jpg) Any larger than the Ussuri brown bear, the bear will win more often than not.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Sept 12, 2021 9:07:32 GMT -5
![](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b6a8ec70d5fbcbe590ddc968f951531f) Sabre tooth cats seem to prey on large prey but they better becareful that struggling does not happen less it cost them their canines.
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Post by brobear on Sept 12, 2021 10:03:10 GMT -5
Quote: "Any larger than the Ussuri brown bear, the bear will win more often than not." ( IMO ) the Ussuri brown bear ( at weight-parity ) would be the victor more often than not. Pictured on post #307, the saber-toothed cat would not likely use its saber-teeth until he has his prey held immobile -( IMO )- not likely such a huge adversary. Pictured on post #306, Smilodon would never go face-to-face against Arctodus simus ( unless perhaps he is cornered ). *Those long 11-inch long knife-like canines make the saber-toothed cats look like the perfect killing machines. But those long teeth were ( to my understanding ) precision tools. As strong as Smilodon was, there was a limit to his prey size. This monster-cat had to hold his prey ( or adversary ) still to use those long fangs. If any large prey or adversary is not immobilized, and struggling, the big cat can easily end-up with broken teeth. If Smilodon can hold his prey still for just a moment, then a quick slice to the throat of his adversary will end the struggle. This would be more easily accomplished against a hoofed four-legged beast. The brown bear is a grappler.
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Post by nocapakabl on Sept 21, 2021 10:14:57 GMT -5
Morphological comparison between the Smilodon populator, the Cave bear (ursus spelaeus) and the Kodiak brown bear, regarding forelimb-bone robusticity
Smilodon Populator
Femur Length: 390.2mm (n=1) Femur Circumference: 134.5mm (n=1) Femur Stoutness Index: 34.47%
Humerus Length: 365.17mm (n=3) Humerus Circumference: 147.5mm (n=3) Humerus Stoutness Index: 40.39%
Comparing these statistics and numbers to bears such as ursus spelaeus and kodiak brown bears:
Cave Bear (n:6)
Humerus Stoutness Index: 34.4% Femur Stoutness Index: 26.99%
Kodiak brown bear (n:2)
Humerus Stoutness Index: 35.7% Femur Stoutness Index: 26.6%
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Post by brobear on Sept 21, 2021 13:42:53 GMT -5
What length are the humerus and femur examples of the bears? At equal head-and-body length, both the brown bear and the cave bear would outweigh the saber-toothed cat. Overall, these bears have greater girth; greater strength.
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