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Post by brobear on May 11, 2021 11:04:10 GMT -5
brobear Really nice find. The largest individual from the sample of those massive sabretooths is estimated to have weighed a whooping 427kg (~941lbs). "The body mass estimate for M. lahayishupup based on humerus circumference is very similar to the one calculated based on humerus length. A diameter of 42.4 mm yields an estimate of 427 kg. Body mass estimates for A. coloradensis and M. catocopis based on humerus circumference are much smaller (diameters of 29.6 and 34.9 mm, respectively;164 and 254 kg, respectively)." 427kg = 941.37 pounds.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 11, 2021 11:11:25 GMT -5
/\ The average male polar bear is still stronger than a big Sabre tooth, 1100 pounds vs 941.37 pounds.
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Post by brobear on May 12, 2021 0:04:50 GMT -5
/\ The average male polar bear is still stronger than a big Sabre tooth, 1100 pounds vs 941.37 pounds. The average of any of the largest saber-tooth cat species does not range above 600 pounds.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 12, 2021 2:40:55 GMT -5
/\ The average male polar bear is still stronger than a big Sabre tooth, 1100 pounds vs 941.37 pounds. The average of any of the largest saber-tooth cat species does not range above 600 pounds. That is why the most relevant match up would be with the Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by brobear on May 12, 2021 11:41:04 GMT -5
The average of any of the largest saber-tooth cat species does not range above 600 pounds. Here is a list of living bear species or subspecies that are too big for any saber-toothed cat species in a face-off ( all full-grown males of course ). Note that a male brown bear is not a full-grown bear until at least 9 or 10 years old.
1- East Siberian brown bear - av 5 yr old+ 509 pounds. ( av 9+ yr old above 600 pounds ) 2- Carpathian brown bear - av. 5 yr old+ 590 pounds. ( av 9+ yr old above 600 pounds ) 3- Ussuri brown bear - av 10 yr old+ 657 pounds. 4- Hokkaido Brown Bear. ( equal in size with Ussuri brown bear ) 5- Kamchatka Brown Bear. ( bigger than Ussuri brown bear ) 6- Alaskan Peninsula Brown Bear - av 9 yr old+ 857.6 pounds. 7- Kodiak Bear - av 9 yr old+ 1077.3 pounds. 8- polar bear - av 6 yr old+ 1075 pounds.
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Post by theundertaker45 on May 13, 2021 2:31:32 GMT -5
Some important info on the size of the new Machairodus species:
"Because of the relatively small AW in M. lahayishupup, we also estimated body mass using the complete humerus preserved in the paratype, UOMNH F-25500, the largest specimen of M. lahayishupup. The humerus is 460.5 mm long, which corresponds to an estimated mass of 405 kg. This is a higher estimate than the one based on AW for the same specimen (348 kg). It is also larger than the body mass estimates for A. coloradensis and M. catocopis that are based on humeral length (309.1 and 403 mm, respectively; 129 and 276 kg, respectively). The body mass estimate for M. lahayishupup based on humerus circumference is very similar to the one calculated based on humerus length. A diameter of 42.4 mm yields an estimate of 427 kg. Body mass estimates for A. coloradensis and M. catocopis based on humerus circumference are much smaller (diameters of 29.6 and 34.9 mm, respectively;164 and 254 kg, respectively)."
They had a set of 7 humerus bones available; the largest one of those measured 460.5mm in length. Now, there are 3 estimates for that humerus bone depending on the type of measurement that has been taken: 348kg (articular width); 405kg (humerus length); 427kg (humerus circumference) which would result in an average of ~393.33kg.
Now, I am personally not a big fan of the first two methods of measuring bones and bringing up an estimate. Circumference measurements along the shaft have proven to bring up the most accurate results in various works due to most of the mass being centered along that area; I'd therefore go with the 427kg estimate for the largest specimen. Articular measurements are more or less related to muscle attachments at the joints/wrists (and they provide impossible values at times like a 500kg American lion) whereas length measurements will most likely signal specific locomotary adaptions (remember that Smilodon was pretty short and estimates upon bone length would result in inflated values).
Taking the circumference into account, the biggest specimen weighs ~427kg. Doing a simple relation on humerus circumference/articular width result (I have to do that as circumference measurements of other humerus bones aren't given) we will end up at a total average weight of ~336.2kg. Note that this is very provisional and nothing can be guaranteed until more circumference/diameter measurements are published. The estimates for the largest type are safe as the humerus was complete but the total average figure could differ from the figure I calculated.
Nevertheless, this cat was of gigantic dimensions; a 460.5mm humerus bone would yield shoulder height reconstructions anywhere from 130-140cm depending on the template of felid you want to use; I am pretty sure it could rival Smilodon Populator in weight but was less massive on a proportional basis.
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Post by brobear on May 13, 2021 2:38:50 GMT -5
So, from Reply #277 - we get a possible average weight for Machairodus lahayishupup of - 336.2kg or 741.19 pounds.
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Post by brobear on May 13, 2021 6:58:27 GMT -5
In a face-off against a full-grown male American grizzly, either Machairodus lahayishupup or Smilodon populator would have a weight advantage of roughly 200 pounds. In an all-out face-to-face fight to the death, the saber-toothed cat would kill the bear. With a substantial weight advantage, a big cat can kill a bear. However, realistically, as we have witnessed in more than a single video ( big male tiger vs female sloth bear ), in most cases, once the big cat experiences the defense of the bear, and realizes that he is up against a beast who knows how to fight, the saber-toothed cat will simply back away and seek his regular prey; ungulates.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 14, 2021 6:10:19 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on May 14, 2021 6:14:56 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on May 19, 2021 2:50:21 GMT -5
About our newest giant saber-toothed cat: wildfact.com/forum/ - Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines - Reply #1,158 by tigerluver wildfact.com/forum/topic-freak-felids-a-discussion-of-history-s-largest-felines?pid=145260#pid145260 Very good information. I have complete trust in this tiger enthusiast a.k.a. Biologist. A good read; ending with: The thing about Machairodus is that a very large proportion of its spine is dedicated to the neck and and based on New World Machairodus the lumbar region is even shorter than that in the lion. This would mean Machairodus would at best have a weight to leg length ratio like that of the lion, but likely less in reality. As such, this new giant is probably 350 kg or a bit less. This is comparable to most of the ancient giants but probably is just a bit lighter than S. populator, some ancient lions, and the Late Pleistocene tiger. In terms of frame however, this specimen may be the largest we know of from the cat family. 350 kg = 771.62 pounds or a bit less.
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Post by brobear on May 28, 2021 8:19:51 GMT -5
WORLD OF PREHISTORIC CREATURES Hi all! I wanted to share this chilled out cat with you - A melanistic Smilodon populator. I thought introducing some melanistic qualities would make it really interesting and striking looking. I mainly took inspiration & used photo ref of black leopards & jaguars, king cheetahs, and a number of big cat hybrids. I’d say jaguar was the main inspiration for the markings with it being another South American cat. I’ve also made a painting time-lapse which can be seen on YouTube:
I’ve got some more sabre - tooth cats in the works that I hope to complete in the near future. Would love to hear your thoughts guys! Thanks all!
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Post by brobear on Jun 30, 2021 4:38:36 GMT -5
Those weapons of the saber-toothed cats:
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Post by brobear on Jun 30, 2021 4:39:41 GMT -5
More:
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Post by brobear on Aug 11, 2021 3:42:13 GMT -5
WORLD OF PREHISTORIC CREATURES Smilodon gracilis (′′ skinny knife tooth ′′) was the smallest and first species of the genus Smilodon. He appeared for the first time in North America around 2,5 million years, probably being a descendant of the Megantereon, and lived until about 500.000 years ago. This species is the least of the genus, weighing just 55 to 150 kg. They lived mainly in the eastern regions of the Americas, reaching north of South America 1.8 million years ago, alongside Homotherium. The first felines are known from Europe's Oligocene, as Proailurus, and the oldest with saber tooth traits is the genus of Miocene Pseudaelurus. The morphology of the skull and jaw of early cats with saber teeth was similar to that of modern cloudy leopards (Neofelis). The bloodline was further adapted to the precision killing of large animals by developing elongated canine teeth and openings wider, sacrificing a great bite force in the process. As their canines got longer, the cats bodies became more robust to immobilize their prey. In derivatives of Smilodontins and Homotherins, the spine and tail lumbar region were shortened, as did the back legs. According to mitochondrial DNA sequences extracted from fossils, the Homotherium and Smilodon bloodlines are estimated to diverge about 18 Ma ago. The oldest species of Smilodon is S. gracilis, and was the successor in North America to Megantereon., which probably evolved from. Megantereon himself had entered North America from Eurasia during the Pliocene, along with Homotherium. S. gracilis reached the northern parts of South America in the early Pleistocene as part of the Great American Exchange. The younger species of Smilodon probably derive from S. gracilis 150 kilograms is equal to 330.69 pounds
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Post by brobear on Aug 11, 2021 4:01:17 GMT -5
Smilodon fatalis - This is the popular saber-toothed cat from Rancho la Brea and other late Pleistocene sites in North America. He was a very big smilodontino, very similar to a lion in linear dimensions but more robust, very muscular in limbs and body, which implies a body mass considerably greater than that of a lion or a tiger. Like Megantereon, it had a long, strong neck, short back, and stubby tail. The skull was very similar to that of Megantereon, but more massive, with larger upper canines, although he had a very reduced mental process in his jaw. The anatomy of Smilodon fatalis was described in admirable detail by J. Merriam and C. Stock in 1932, thanks to the spectacular fossil display from Rancho la Brea. As mentioned above, Smilodon fatalis was similar to a lion in its linear dimensions, implying that it would have a comparable overall body length and shoulder height, but as it was more stocky and muscular, he would have weighed considerably more. Precisely how much more is a difficult question to answer, and like great cats, the dimorphic S. fatalis would have been extremely variable in weight. The paleontologist W. Anyonge (1993) estimated the body weight of S. fatalis on the basis of the dimensions of the long bones, which are more reliable than the dental measurements traditionally used for mass estimates in fossils. His results indicate weights between 340 and 440 kilograms, quite impressive when compared to an existing 110 to 225 kilogram range African lions. However, a more recent estimate by P. Christiansen and J. Harris (2005), based on thirty-six osteological variables, gives a range 160-280 kilograms, still imposing but more in line with the weights of modern big cats.
The species name Smilodon fatalis was coined by Leidy, who in 1868 described a fragmentary maxilla from Hardin County, Texas, but, as some readers may already be guessing, it was not originally rated In the Smilodon genre, things are never that simple! In fact, Leidy thought that his fossils belonged to a member of the genus Felis, although he considered them distinctive enough to place them in a new subgenre and species: Felis (Trucifelis) fatalis. After the usual taxonomic comings and goings, which have seen the rise and fall of species names like S. mercerii, S. floridanus, and S. californicus, it is now generally accepted that there were only two species of Smilodon in North America: the size of a lion, late Pleistocene S. fatalis and the smallest and oldest (early and middle Pleistocene) S. gracilis, intermediate in size and morphology between Megantereon and S. fatalis.
280 kilograms is equal to 617.29 pounds
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 11, 2021 9:20:49 GMT -5
Reply 284 and 285. While their canines are capable of piercing bone and delivering skull bites, these canines still do not allow them to grapple with prey like tigers and lions do. Also, brawling with long canines is dangerous. Gorillas have suffered broken jaws despite their strong jaws.
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Post by brobear on Aug 25, 2021 3:32:42 GMT -5
First posted by Tigerluver ( biologist ). wildfact.com/forum/ Smilodon populator - A new fossil and questions about bone robusticity to cursoriality, among other issues Browsing through some older document, I found one of great insight to Smilodon fatalis and S. populator morphology, Relationships between North and South American Smilodon by Björn Kurtén and Lars Werdelin. The differences between the forms were analyzed by this work, and you can read up on it in the attachment. Postcranial anatomy interests me the most. For one, I found a record size humerus of 410 mm. Isometrically comparing to the bear humerus of 400.5 mm, this specimen would be about 470 kg (a post on p. 1 explains why bears may be better isometric basis for this species). This humerus puts S. populator back at the top of felid weights. But there's a caveat. The same document found that "the forelimb of S. populator is somewhat longer, relative to the hindlimb, than in S. fatalis. Such a lengthening of the forelimb is a characteristic of the open plains." An example of this observation is the fact that lion has a proportionally longer humerus and ulna compared to the hindlimb bones, being the only big cat living almost exclusively in the open plains. This morphological characteristic results in overestimation of mass from all bone measurements when comparing to a more average proportional individual. Bone length overestimates because the bone is disproportionately long, and width dimensions overestimate because the width is more for accommodating running stress than muscle in such cases. The brown bear has much shorter frontlimbs than hindlimbs are compared to S. populator, and a bit shorter proportions compared to S. fatalis. In this form, S. fatalis is more robust and bear-like than S. populator, but neither were probably as muscular as a bear, but rather some of the bone width was more for running stress similarly to how lions bones have widened so greatly as compared to other cats. With that, the S. populator estimation using the brown bear as the base is probably an overestimate, or faulty at the least. S. fatalis reconstructions from a brown bear may be a bit less of an overestimate. Smilodon would lack the posterior weight the bear would in the this areas due to the FL/HL discrepancy, and thus the two species are not analogous, at least for humerus calculations. It is very possible the opposite effects of mass estimation would occur if a brown bear femur is being compared to the proportionately shorter Smilodon femur. Smilodon's femur is proportionately much larger than its tibia compared to all pantherines by a long ways. Its humerus is also proportionately larger than its ulna, a ratio only matched by the very robust leopard and jaguar. The longer proximal bones is indicative of the fact that Smilodon is indeed much more heavily built than the lion and the tiger, and somewhat more heavyset than the leopard and jaguar. From this, maybe the best route of Smilodon reconstruction would be one width dimensions and/or the length dimension of the bone, either allometrically or isometrically compared to only jaguars and leopards. The type of bone being used would also have to be taken into account to predict the accuracy of the estimation. Forelimb estimates may be overestimates somewhat, and vice versa for hindlimb estimates. The cursoriality and locomotion topic is a bit convoluted. One can pick one trait of an organism and attribute it to a certain locomotion and sound accurate, but then another similar trait of another organism results in a completely different, unexpected behavior and things stop making much sense. The extremely sloped back of S. populator and somewhat sloped back of S. fatalis do not seem favorable to much high intensity running in my head, it just seems a bit off balance. Having proportionately longer proximal long bones (humerus, femur, the bone more associated with mass of the body's core) than distal long bones also makes the much running or sprinting less likely, as to be a runner or a sprinter, you'd want more ulna/tibia (the light bones which increase stride), than femur/humerus. Spoor (1986) attributes sloped backs to the assignment of the center of mass, where "In hyenas it is situated more cranial than in other large carnivores due to the heavy musculature of the fore limb, the long neck and the powerful jaws." S. populator has the first two characteristics of the hyena. Maybe it used the frontal center of mass in pinning down prey better, reducing risk to its canines. According to what little fossil evidence has been discovered, the Pleistocene grizzly was roughly the size of our modern grizzly bears and probably compared to roughly weight-parity with Smilodon fatalis.
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Post by brobear on Aug 25, 2021 6:48:44 GMT -5
Pleistocene grizzly vs Smilodon fatalis - We can only speculate our conjecture based on what we each know or believe. ( IMO ) I would wager on the bear.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Aug 25, 2021 6:59:03 GMT -5
The bear looks bulkier and is probably the better grappler. The smilodon fatalis has stronger forearms than other big cats except the populator possibly. However, plantigrades hit harder than digitigrades.
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