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Post by brobear on Nov 11, 2020 0:29:12 GMT -5
Smilodon estimated average weights ( full-grown males ): S. populator ( according to Reply #147 ): 660lbs (300kg ). S. fatalis ( mostly an educated guess after reading numerous googled sites ): 450lbs ( 204kg ). S. gracilis: 360lbs. ( 163kg ). dinopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Smilodon IF my given average weights are correct, then the average Smilodon would weigh: 426 pounds. The Ussuri brown bear 10+ year old or above - full-grown male - averages from 650 to 700 pounds, making this a weight-parity face-off. ( 50/50 ).
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 2:39:15 GMT -5
KODIAK BEAR VS SMILODON POPULATOR: a very famous battle in other forums. Now lets take a look at the advantages and disadvantages. 1 - Numbers. This is a huge advantage. 1 vs 1 face to face fight.#2 - Experience. This is a great advantage if coupled with learning ability. The fight would have to be between two experienced specimens.#3 - Size and Weight. At average weights and max weights, the Kodiak has a big weight advantage. It would have to be a Smilodon at max weights, around 880 lbs, vs a Kodiak basically at average weights after hibernation. #4 - Strength and Leverage. Kodiak takes both. #5 - Speed and Quick Reflexes. Smilodon takes both. #6 - Agility. Smildon is more agile. #7 - Natural Weapons. Kodiak has longer claws, Smilodon has longer canines. #8 - Natural Armor. Kodiak has much better armor. #9 - Grappling Ability. Kodiak is a much better grappler #10 - Intelligence. Kodiak being a bear is much more intelligent.
#11 - Bipedal Ability. Kodiak takes this. #11 - Aggressiveness. Very subjective and depends on the situation, but i think Smilodon takes this. #12 - Bite Force. Smilodon should take this one. #13 - Stamina. Kodiak for sure takes this. #14 - Endurance to Pain and Injury. Kodiak for sure. #15 - Paw-Strike. The Kodiak is plantigrade while the Smilodon is digitigrade. This means the Kodiak has more swinging force and a fighting advantage.1- numbers / whether Smilodon was a lone hunter or hunted in groups is unknown. 2- experience / as a fighter, the bear would likely have more experience in face-to-face combat. 3- size and weight / Kodiak bear. 4- strength and leverage / Kodiak bear. 5- speed and quick reflexes / Smilodon might have slight advantage. 6- agility / Smilodon might have slight advantage. 7- natural weapons / bear's claws and canine teeth are both superior in a fight. 8- natural armor / bear has superior durability ( thicker ). 9- grappling ability / bear has slight edge. 10- intelligence / Kodiak bear. 11- aggressiveness / as there is little or no size difference between sexes of Smilodon, there were likely little fighting between males, suggesting less aggressive behavior than in other cat species. I will give Smilodon and bear a 50/50. 12- bite-force / Kodiak bear. 13- stamina / bear. 14- endurance to pain and injury - bear. 15- paw-strike - Kodiak bear.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 13, 2020 5:25:12 GMT -5
The male Kodiak bear and male polar bear are obviously going to beat a smilodon populator being almost twice the Sabre toothed tiger’s weight. A female would be a better match up as they are closer in weight. brobear, how do you think it will go for a female Kodiak bear vs male smilodon populator?
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 5:49:40 GMT -5
The male Kodiak bear and male polar bear are obviously going to beat a smilodon populator being almost twice the Sabre toothed tiger’s weight. A female would be a better match up as they are closer in weight. brobear , how do you think it will go for a female Kodiak bear vs male smilodon populator? Quite honestly; I don't like this type of face-off topic. It should be male vs male or female vs female. I really hate when this is twisted so as to give the weaker opponent a "fighting chance". Exception to the rule, male wolf vs female hyena ( because the hyena is "female dominant" ). Exception to the rule also, male tiger vs female Ussuri bear because she is on his prey list. The Ussuri brown bear is ( IMO ) a more debatable face-off choice for Smilodon.
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Post by brobear on Nov 13, 2020 5:53:17 GMT -5
Amur tiger vs polar bear sow - I don't really like this topic either, but it is a popular topic - at least it is debatable. Problem is; if a tiger can kill a female polar bear; does this really put a feather in anyone's hat. No.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 13, 2020 7:16:18 GMT -5
Yes, for some reason i cant edit my post. But at that time i had not seen the bite force study showing that bears with a 40 to 45% weight advantage over felines have a higher bite. So at average weights, the Kodiak should bite harder. At same weight, the Populator.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 13, 2020 7:23:29 GMT -5
Reply 220. The smilodon populator's bite is only one third that of a lion. It does have a better stabbing bite though.
I think a brown bear and polar bear has a stronger bite force than a smilodon populator even at equal weights. The sabre tooth cat has the better stabbing bite not crushing bite I guess.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 16, 2020 7:05:31 GMT -5
Smilodon's bite force: "The group predicts that a 230-kilogram Smilodon would have a bite force of about 1,000 Newtons from its 20-centimetre-long canines: about the same as that of a 80-kilogram jaguar and only a third that of a 250-kilogram lion." www.nature.com/news/2007/071001/full/071001-2.html#:~:text=The%20group%20predicts%20that%20a,of%20a%20250%2Dkilogram%20lion In terms of canine strength and ability to deal with stresses, Reddhole posted this: "This is also supported by this study's measurements of the sabertooth's canine bending strength. S AP and S LM are different measurement of canine strength. Smilodon fatalis's canines were similar (and in some respects greater) in strength as lions, tigers and jaguars, but the sabertooth cat was also heavier." (The Table doesn't seem to appear on this forum but you can check it out on Carnivora). Per Christiansen, "Comparitive Bite Force and Canine Bending Strength in Feline and Sabertooth Felids: Implications for Predator Ecology", Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, 151: 2, 2007, P 423-437 (The table from that has the average bite force of S. populator at Canines in Newtons as 960.9. The Jaguar's average was 879.5. ) carnivora.net/smilodon-populator-v-black-caiman-t3281-s30.html#p143103Info found on Carnivora.
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Post by brobear on Nov 16, 2020 7:16:34 GMT -5
Yes, for some reason i cant edit my post. But at that time i had not seen the bite force study showing that bears with a 40 to 45% weight advantage over felines have a higher bite. So at average weights, the Kodiak should bite harder. At same weight, the Populator. Smilodon had a much weaker bite force than a similar-sized Pantherine. So ( IMO ) at weight-parity, the brown bear would have a greater bite-force.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 16, 2020 7:19:32 GMT -5
Yes, for some reason i cant edit my post. But at that time i had not seen the bite force study showing that bears with a 40 to 45% weight advantage over felines have a higher bite. So at average weights, the Kodiak should bite harder. At same weight, the Populator. Smilodon had a much weaker bite force than a similar-sized Pantherine. So ( IMO ) at weight-parity, the brown bear would have a greater bite-force. Even a polar bear will have a greater bite force than a smilodon at weight parity.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Nov 16, 2020 7:25:12 GMT -5
Bite force is a controversial issue in general; yes, the genus Smilodon had not that high of a bite force but they didn't need as their method of grappling/killing prey is adjusted for their main weapon, the huge canines. Similarly, all varanids have pathetic bite forces but it's their serrated teeth and the motion of them applying them ("chainsawing" their prey) which makes up for that. I'd consider a Smilodon a more dangerous opponent for a bear at parity than any of the Panthera cats.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 16, 2020 8:32:10 GMT -5
KODIAK BEAR VS SMILODON POPULATOR: a very famous battle in other forums. Now lets take a look at the advantages and disadvantages. 1 - Numbers. This is a huge advantage. This should be a 1 vs 1 face to face fight.#2 - Experience. This is a great advantage if coupled with learning ability. The fight would have to be between two experienced specimens.#3 - Size and Weight. At average weights and max weights, the Kodiak has a big weight advantage. #4 - Strength and Leverage. Kodiak takes both. #5 - Speed and Quick Reflexes. Smilodon takes both. #6 - Agility. Smildon is more agile. #7 - Natural Weapons. Kodiak has longer claws, Smilodon has longer canines. #8 - Natural Armor. Kodiak has much better armor. #9 - Grappling Ability. Kodiak is a much better grappler #10 - Intelligence. Kodiak being a bear is much more intelligent.
#11 - Bipedal Ability. Kodiak takes this. #11 - Aggressiveness. Very subjective and depends on the situation, but i think Smilodon takes this. #12 - Bite Force. Kodiak bear. #13 - Stamina. Kodiak for sure takes this. #14 - Endurance to Pain and Injury. Kodiak for sure. #15 - Paw-Strike. The Kodiak is plantigrade while the Smilodon is digitigrade. This means the Kodiak has more swinging force and a fighting advantage. #12- bite force edited. So the Smilodon didn't even have that advantage at same weight. Awesome.
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Post by brobear on Nov 16, 2020 8:58:39 GMT -5
Smilodon populator vs Ussuri brown bear ( weight-parity ) I will stick with my 50/50 in any big cat vs any bear at weight-parity.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 11, 2020 12:04:43 GMT -5
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 12, 2020 1:33:42 GMT -5
The scmitars is probably one of the weakest extinct big cats pound to pound.
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Post by brobear on Dec 12, 2020 6:07:35 GMT -5
Quote from reply #23: THE SCIMITAR CATS WERE PROBABLY AMBUSH PREDATORS. *Without any doubts. They were cats.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 14, 2020 1:27:00 GMT -5
Journal Reference: Deng T, Zhang Y X, Tseng Z J et al., 2016. A skull of Machairodus horribilis and new evidence for gigantism as a mode of mosaic evolution in machairodonts (Felidae, Carnivora). Vertebrata PalAsiatica, 54(4): 302−318 Abstract Sabertooth cats were extinct carnivorans that have attracted great attention and controversy because of their unique dental morphology representing an entirely extinct mode of feeding specialization. Some of them are lion-sized or tiger-sized carnivorans who are widely interpreted as hunters of larger and more powerful preys than those of their modern nonsaber-toothed relatives. We report the discovery of a large sabertooth cat skull of Machairodus horribilis from the Late Miocene of northwestern China. It shares some characteristics with derived sabertooth cats, but also is similar to extant pantherines in some cranial characters. A functional morphological analysis suggests that it differed from most other machairodont felids and had a limited gape to hunt smaller preys. Its anatomical features provide new evidence for the diversity of killing bites even within in the largest saber-toothed carnivorans and offer an additional mechanism for the mosaic evolution leading to functional and morphological diversity in sabertooth cats. carnivora.net/amphimachairodus-kabir-v-machairodus-horribilis-t9191.html#p145877From Carnivora.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 26, 2020 16:57:07 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Dec 26, 2020 18:04:15 GMT -5
No sources; online address?
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 26, 2020 21:40:20 GMT -5
No sources; online address? I screenshot them from a Facebook website.
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