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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2020 3:41:09 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ - Pleistocene Big Cats - Smilodon populator - A new record specimen for Smilodon populator: ( page #4 ). Based on measurements of the long bones in the new skull, Manzuetti and his team were able to estimate just how big the cat truly was: Up to 436 kg. That is the weight of a grand piano." ( 436 kilograms is equal to 961.22 pounds ). So, according to this information, the maximum-size Smilodon populator was the size of a large Alaska Peninsula brown bear. *Edit and Add: From where I'm standing, the average S. populator was pretty-much at weight parity with a full-grown male Ussuri brown bear ( from 650 to 700 pounds ). At max-size, still holding close. *Rethinking Smilodon populator vs Ussuri brown bear ( weight-parity ) I will stick with my 50/50 in any big cat vs any bear at weight-parity.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 9, 2020 6:39:06 GMT -5
According to this source, the Ussuri brown bear which is a plantigrade likely hits harder with its paws than a smilodon populator.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 9, 2020 9:52:40 GMT -5
Exactly, but not only that, it also has a better developed deltoid crest
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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2020 10:53:36 GMT -5
And; let's not overlook that shoulder hump of muscles which reinforces the brown bears already massive upper-body strength. From Frank321.... Strength and Girth Comparison of Bears and Big Cats / Reply #295, #296, and #298. Quote: To sum up the shoulder hump section, we can conclude the extra hump of muscle a brown bear will have will have a noticeable effect on the conclusion, as seemingly 36 pounds of muscle will be gained in this area; this would mean a feline's muscles would need to be much more powerful than those of a bear to ditigate the effect of an extra 30+ pounds of muscle; something which is highly unlikely.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 9, 2020 11:17:09 GMT -5
And we know in the whole upper body, the feline's muscles are not more powerful, in fact, bears have more powerful biceps muscles than those of felids:
"Among these traits, the intertubercular groove morphology has interesting functional implications: the tendon of the muscle biceps brachii runs into this groove, with the transversal humeral ligament (developed between both the greater and the lesser tubercles) keeping the tendon in place inside the groove (Evans 1993; Barone 2010). As described previously, the shape of the intertubercular groove is similar in canids, felids, and amphicyonids in general (thus including M. anceps), it being markedly different from that of ursids, which have a much more closed, canal-like groove (Fig. 6). Taylor (1974) associated this character with both the power of the muscle biceps brachii and the degree of usage: a clearly defined intertubercular groove, such as that of ursids, would allow a better control of movements, and probably a powerful muscle. According to Taylor (1974) the nandiniid Nandinia binotata, which shows an ursid-like groove, employs this muscle to a much greater degree than the viverrid Civettictis civetta (with a much more open groove) and this would be related to the greater climbing ability of the former."
www.researchgate.net/publication/264931438_Comparative_Anatomy_of_the_Shoulder_Region_in_the_Late_Miocene_Amphicyonid_Magericyon_anceps_Carnivora_Functional_and_Paleoecological_Inferences
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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2020 11:19:56 GMT -5
Smilodon was pound-for-pound stronger than any Pantherine, but not on par with a brown bear or a polar bear. ( other bears I'm not sure ). Also interesting read - reply #1 at "Strength and Girth Comparison of Bears and Big Cats".
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 9, 2020 11:42:42 GMT -5
In case anybody is wondering why i posted human pics to show the location of those morphological features, its because:
#1) if you search for pics of "bear's deltoid crest" or "bear's biceps", you wont find anything.
#2) the location of those features is exactly the same as in animals.
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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2020 11:47:11 GMT -5
In case anybody is wondering why i posted human pics to show the location of those morphological features, its because:
#1) if you search for pics of "bear's deltoid crest" or "bear's biceps", you wont find anything.
#2) the location of those features is exactly the same as in animals.
In fact; it was learned centuries ago that a bear carcass stripped of its hide looks like the carcass of a massively-built man. This carcass ( by the way ) is said to have been from a very non-impressive brown bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 9, 2020 12:02:16 GMT -5
So morphologically speaking, brown bears have over felids in general:
-huge shoulder hump (mostly muscle) -better developed deltoid crest -more powerful biceps muscles -wider and more robust scapula -larger collarbones -more robust limbs
domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/27615/thread
Yeah, its all clear to us, the "salmon eater" is morphologically superior to any felid.
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Post by smedz on Oct 9, 2020 15:20:47 GMT -5
The most reliable sources have the Smilodon Populator average weight at 300 kg (661 lbs). A 360 kg specimen would be way above average, it would be a really large specimen. Can you direct me to the sources please? I'd love to see them.
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Post by brobear on Oct 9, 2020 16:35:49 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ ... Pleistocene Big Cats ... Smilodon populator ... post #57. I will not copy and paste due to copyrights warning. Smilodon biting into the skull of another Smilodon evidence.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 9, 2020 17:52:12 GMT -5
The most reliable sources have the Smilodon Populator average weight at 300 kg (661 lbs). A 360 kg specimen would be way above average, it would be a really large specimen. Can you direct me to the sources please? I'd love to see them. Body size of Smilodon (Mammalia: Felidae) per Christiansen.
The body masses of the three large saber-toothed machairodontines, Smilodon gracilis, S. fatalis, and S. populator, were estimated on the basis of 36 osteological variables from the appendicular skeleton of extant felids. A new model is introduced that takes the reliability of the predictor equations into account, since mass estimates are more reliable when computed from multiple variables per bone. At a body mass range of 55-100 kg, S. gracilis was comparable in size to extant jaguars, and S. fatalis was found to be somewhat lighter than previously assumed, with a body mass range of 160-280 kg, similar to that of the largest extant felid, the Siberian tiger. Smilodon populator was substantially heavier and larger than any extant felid, with a body mass range of 220-360 kg. Particularly large specimens of S. populator almost certainly exceeded 400 kg in body mass. The differences from previous estimates are most likely caused by differences in the databases used for mass estimation.www.researchgate.net/publication/7531697_Body_size_ofSmilodon_Mammalia_FelidaeSmilodon populator body mass range 220-360 kg. Since we dont have an exact average, we take the median and we get 290 kg (639 lbs).
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 11, 2020 16:42:06 GMT -5
These weights are about similar to an average male Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by brobear on Oct 12, 2020 9:47:11 GMT -5
Smilodon estimated average weights ( full-grown males ): S. populator ( according to Reply #147 ): 660lbs (300kg ). S. fatalis ( mostly an educated guess after reading numerous googled sites ): 450lbs ( 204kg ). S. gracilis: 360lbs. ( 163kg ). dinopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Smilodon IF my given average weights are correct, then the average Smilodon would weigh: 426 pounds.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Oct 12, 2020 10:04:14 GMT -5
Reply 209. That is lighter than the average Ussuri brown bear.
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Post by theundertaker45 on Oct 14, 2020 5:12:10 GMT -5
Here is the mean weight range of Smilodon gracilis according to the material that has been found so far: The overall average range would be 55-111kg; although an expert in paleontology (Per Christiansen) notes that freak specimens could have reached 130kg or more: "Accordingly, S. gracilis almost certainly, on occasion, exceeded 130 kg (Fig. 5), as in extant jaguars (Nowak, 1991; Sunquist and Sunquist, 2002)."
(Source: Per Christiansen and John M. Harris, "Body Size of Smilodon", Journal of Morphology: 266: P 369-384, 2005; information is credited to "Reddhole" and "Taipan" from Carnivora)
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Post by smedz on Oct 19, 2020 19:22:50 GMT -5
www.newscientist.com/article/2257509-social-life-of-extinct-sabre-toothed-cat-revealed-by-ancient-dna/ The first in-depth study of sabre-toothed cat DNA reveals genetic clues that some of them were swift predators that lived in social groups. Ross Barnett at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark and his colleagues focused on Homotherium latidens, sometimes nicknamed the scimitar-toothed cat because its canine teeth were a bit shorter than those in many members of this group of extinct felids. From the proportions of its fossil bones, researchers have long suspected that Homotherium ran after prey rather than waiting in ambush. Barnett and his colleagues discovered evidence in favour of the idea in genetic clues extracted from a Homotherium thigh bone uncovered in Yukon territory, Canada, that is at least 47,000 years old. The cat’s DNA reveals that the ancestors of Homotherium split from other cat groups around 22.5 million years ago. It also includes genes associated with being active during the day, as well as adaptations in the respiratory and circulatory systems related to running. Sabre-toothed cats also have thick, strong front limb bones for grappling prey, says palaeontologist Ashley Reynolds at the University of Toronto, “so it’s very interesting to see positive selection in PGD, a gene associated with bone mineralisation”. Barnett and his colleagues found genes associated with social behaviour, too, hinting that Homotherium may have lived in groups, like lions, rather than living and hunting alone like a leopard. What’s more, the amount of genetic diversity in the sample suggests that Homotherium was much more common than previously thought. “Given the extremely low numbers of Homotherium fossils, this was a shock,” Barnett says. This may mean that many unidentified sabre-toothed cat bones in museum collections really belong to Homotherium. “Skulls and teeth are more readily identifiable than the rest of the body,” Reynolds says. The study itself underscores this possibility. “In fact,” Barnett says, “this Homotherium bone was first identified as ‘large cat/cave lion?’ before we got the DNA.”
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Post by brobear on Nov 10, 2020 20:06:23 GMT -5
Smilodon estimated average weights ( full-grown males ): S. populator ( according to Reply #147 ): 660lbs (300kg ). S. fatalis ( mostly an educated guess after reading numerous googled sites ): 450lbs ( 204kg ). S. gracilis: 360lbs. ( 163kg ). dinopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Smilodon IF my given average weights are correct, then the average Smilodon would weigh: 426 pounds. The Ussuri brown bear 10+ year old or above - full-grown male - averages from 650 to 700 pounds, making this a weight-parity face-off. ( 50/50 ).
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Nov 10, 2020 20:11:49 GMT -5
Even a sloth bear and a giant panda are too big for a smilodon gracilis in terms of average weights.
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Post by King Kodiak on Nov 10, 2020 21:28:20 GMT -5
Actually, if you take a look at Undertaker's post at reply #211, the range for Gracilis was from 55 to 111 kg, with freak specimens reaching 130 kg+. A 163 kg specimen would be a freak.
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