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Post by brobear on Dec 25, 2020 13:46:31 GMT -5
Reply #108 about the notorious Kesagake. Good find TheGreenAgriotherium. This bear reminds me of the notorious grizzlies of the American West.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 11:28:47 GMT -5
Source:- Cultural depiction of bears-Wikipedia
"In Korean mythology, a tiger and a bear prayed to Hwanung, the son of the Lord of Heaven, that they might become human. Upon hearing their prayers, Hwanung gave them 20 cloves of garlic and a bundle of mugwort, ordering them to eat only this sacred food and remain out of the sunlight for 100 days. The tiger gave up after about twenty days and left the cave. However, the bear persevered and was transformed into a woman. The bear and the tiger are said to represent two tribes that sought the favor of the heavenly prince. The bear-woman (Ungnyeo; 웅녀/熊女) was grateful and made offerings to Hwanung. However, she lacked a husband, and soon became sad and prayed beneath a "divine birch" tree (Korean: 신단수; Hanja: 神檀樹; RR: shindansu) to be blessed with a child. Hwanung, moved by her prayers, took her for his wife and soon she gave birth to a son named Dangun Wanggeom – who was the legendary founder of Gojoseon, the first ever Korean kingdom."
This may represent that bears are more patience and spiritual than tigers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2021 6:28:06 GMT -5
It is often asked that the grizzly bear held great importance in the red indians but why the grizzly bear was not found in the Mesoamerican cultures as the Mexican grizzly bear was also present there? Why? Answer:- First it is to be noted that the bear and civilization of the america had different areas on further divison of mexico. Mesoamerican area starts not from the mexico but from the CENTRAL MEXICO to Hondurass. The civilization in Mexico arose from the mexican valley which is near central Mexico. On the other hand, whereas the mexican grizzly range was only found in the areas of the NORTHERN MEXICO and it was not found in the central mexico where these people arose these civilization. So we see:- Mesoamerica civilizations limit:- Central mexico Mexican grizzly bear limit:- Northern mexico So we see that both the people and bear had no interreaction so the bear could not appear in their culture. See the pictures: Left to right, Mexican grizzly bear range, Mesoamerica area.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2021 6:32:27 GMT -5
The aztecs and the toltec made empires but still could not as far to see the grizzly. Left to right:- Northern mexico and Aztec empire.
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Post by brobear on Feb 19, 2021 7:22:49 GMT -5
They cannot place into their culture an animal they never saw; this is true. I read numerous books on the topic of the historical grizzly ( 19th century into the early 20th century ). All authors agree; the Mexican grizzly was the smallest, most vegetarian, and least aggressive. The California grizzly was a gigantic aggressive bear. The old bison hunters of the Great Plains were big grizzlies. The Rocky Mountain grizzly was smaller than those of the vast prairie and less aggressive - this is our Yellowstone bears.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2021 11:38:39 GMT -5
I bet that if the Mesoamericans knew about the Mexican grizzly bear so the bear would even surpass the importance of eagle in their culture because the relatives of the Mesoamerican in the north I.e. red idians gave the most importance to the bears. I can imagine and that may happen if the bear was known in them that:-
1#..The grizzly was sacred to the gods like Huitzilipochtli (god of war and sun) and to tezcatlipoca (god of war and was primary. The grizzly importance to such dieties and was sacrificed for them.
2#..The grizzly was a representative of the mounth of their long stone calender.
3#..The grizzly was an important and impressive animal in the Aztec zoo made by Montezuma Ilhuicamina.
4#..Kings may wore bear skins and many Talatoani (kings) and Pipiltin (Noble) etc had names meaning bear etc.
5#...The bear was worshipped and was a most important animal to the shamans.
6#..The rank 'Bear warrior' may be present in them along with the eagle and jaguar warrior who were considered the best warriors.
7#..Other myths and rituals for bears may developed for the bear if present there like bear dance etc.
Near me same goes for the wolf as for the grizzly bear. Wolf may be given that type of importance like that given in the northern area. If the toltecs also added the coyote warrior so I think they would not hestitate to add a wolf warrior is present. To Mesoamericans, dog, birds(eagle), snake and jaguar were sacred and the wolf and bear would also get that importance if they were also present there and the people knew about them. Red Indians loves bear, wolf and eagle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2021 11:46:48 GMT -5
Some Mesoamerican things that remained after the Spanish invasion. Left to right:- Palace, Page of book, Art (Quetzalcoalt "Feathered-Serpent":-God of wisdow, paper and civilization).
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Post by brobear on Mar 30, 2021 2:52:35 GMT -5
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Post by Montezuma on Apr 6, 2021 19:49:36 GMT -5
If Aztecs ever saw the Grizzly bear so it would replace the importance of jaguar as the grizzly replaced the importance of cougar in the northern america in the Red indians.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Apr 6, 2021 23:30:33 GMT -5
If Aztecs ever saw the Grizzly bear so it would replace the importance of jaguar as the grizzly replaced the importance of cougar in the northern america in the Red indians. Unfortunately the Aztecs never saw a grizzly bear as they live too far down south but I agree that the bear will dominate.
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Post by Montezuma on Apr 7, 2021 15:19:41 GMT -5
I sometimes think that why in some areas bears are given importance and why not. I think i have concluded the answer. Lets start from far east,
In Russian Far East, not pure russians are settled. By race, there are two nation which are belonging from the yellow people and the Slavic people. Slavic people are Aryans and Eastern europe and Russians are from these. By nature, Slavic people have showed more respect for the bear despite the presence of wolf and tiger. In Slavic culture bears are dominant and bear in called as king.
The people who call tiger as king despite the presence of bear are linked to the Yellow people. Yellow people are Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and South-east Asian by race. By nature, yellow people love and respect tiger more than bear. Udge people in siberia who showed tiger superior to bear were also Yellow people by race. However bears were still respect and sacred to yellow people too. Japanese never showed such respect to the tiger although the cat was not present in Japan but was known.
We conclude that if brown bear and tigers are present in a same area, so due to nature of race, Slavic people will chose bear and yellow people (except japanese) will favour tiger.
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Post by Montezuma on Apr 7, 2021 15:29:38 GMT -5
Of we move to central Asia where mostly Mongols, Huns, turks, tartars etc live so we see that they mostly love the wolf. These people saw bears, tigers and lions but still they respected the wolf. When mongols conquered the world so they had seen and even hunted tigers and bears but they never put these two beasts over the wolf. Turks of turkey were aware of lions and even the narions off turkmanistan etc but still wolves are more loved and respected by them.
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Post by Montezuma on Apr 7, 2021 15:38:10 GMT -5
In south east asia, Thialand, Laos, Combodia etc, brown bears were not present and the largest predator on that land was tiger so obviously no brown bear and lion equals to tiger domain.
In middle east, lions have dominated all animals in culture. Countries include Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Egypt and Lebanon. Syrian brown bear were present but did not got importance. I have the reason.
1. The bear was not as abundantly found in middle east as in America or Russia and lions were present numerous.
2. The bear was small, less agressive and did not had a fearsome loook like its cousins.
Tigers were also present but still got no importance. The lion was dominant. I think if there was numerous grizzly bear in middle east then the bear would be given more respect like lion as by nature Arabic people liked brave and pugnacious animals like lion and wolf.
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Post by Montezuma on Apr 7, 2021 15:51:38 GMT -5
In africa, no bears means no respect, its simple.
In America, Red indians are found (now whites). Indians are mongols by race but are very different. Unlike mongols, red indians are intellectual, technical and civilized. From the alaska to Northern mexico, red indians respected bear more than any other animal. Only the eagle could rival the bear's importance. Cougars are left behind.
The reason that why not in mesoanerica the bear has importance in explained above as no bear seen means no idea of bear.
In Inca culture, in Peru, the eagle and jaguar importance in mesoamerica was replaced by Condor and Puma. They knew the Andean bear but not respected as puma. The reason is that the bear did not had impressive features and look like its cousins grizzlies. Thats why i donot blame incas as they nevet saw king of the beasts the grizzly. Inca were also red indians by race so as in red indian nature, they would also favour the grizzly if they saw it.
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Post by King Kodiak on Apr 7, 2021 15:51:51 GMT -5
Reply #110:
This is a very good post buddy, really. I think you nailed it. Its the yellows that mostly favor the tiger, same as in animal forums.
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Post by Montezuma on Apr 7, 2021 16:09:47 GMT -5
The india, sub-continent, is a tiger loving nation. Despite of knowing the Pugnacity of lion and the sloth bear, they still favour the tigers. I donot understand the reason that why such precious animals which have showed more pugnacity than tiger are not given such importance. Wolf is hated in india which i donot like.
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Post by Montezuma on Apr 7, 2021 16:16:34 GMT -5
Reply #110:
This is a very good post buddy, really. I think you nailed it. Its the yellows that mostly favor the tiger, same as in animal forums. Exactly, you can see many posters who are tiger lovers are mostly from china, korea or india.
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Post by brobear on Aug 11, 2021 3:15:27 GMT -5
Question for Shadow, whose home in "Viking" country... and of course others are welcome to answer. As a kid I enjoyed reading Greek/Roman mythology. Then I discovered the Norse myths... I am bewildered that the bear is rarely mentioned. I know that the Vikings had a high regard for the bear, considering the Berserkers. The only bear native to Europe being the brown bear. This also brings to mind that Aesop also seems to have neglected the bear. I know of only one of his tales featuring the bear. Some decades back, I read the book, "The Dark Side of Christian History" by Helen Ellerbe. It told of some big "world library" being destroyed and of non-Christian works being burned in many European locations. This leaves me wondering if perhaps the bear was removed from some of these old stories?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2021 5:13:25 GMT -5
Question for Shadow, whose home in "Viking" country... and of course others are welcome to answer. As a kid I enjoyed reading Greek/Roman mythology. Then I discovered the Norse myths... I am bewildered that the bear is rarely mentioned. I know that the Vikings had a high regard for the bear, considering the Berserkers. The only bear native to Europe being the brown bear. This also brings to mind that Aesop also seems to have neglected the bear. I know of only one of his tales featuring the bear. Some decades back, I read the book, "The Dark Side of Christian History" by Helen Ellerbe. It told of some big "world library" being destroyed and of non-Christian works being burned in many European locations. This leaves me wondering if perhaps the bear was removed from some of these old stories? Well, Vikings visited my country occasionally in past, some of them never returned from here though Mainly interactions were pretty peaceful I think, buying and selling things. But what comes to bears, I can´t say right away how much some old books might have been burned here. Actually I don´t believe that here have been any books from those times with bear mythology. That mythology has mostly been transferred from one generation to another by stories which have been told while sitting around fireplace or campfire... you get the picture I think. So we are talking about lore/tradition. Bear and moose have been always highly respected animals here. Bear has so many different names in our tradition, that I doubt that anyone could tell all of them, there are hundreds of different words (at least over two hundred), which actually mean bear, when digging deeper. One thing, which you might find interesting is Ursa Major. This is directly from wikipedia (not a good source, but in this case it´s ok): "Ursa Major has been reconstructed as an Indo-European constellation. It was one of the 48 constellations listed by the 2nd century AD astronomer Ptolemy in his Almagest, who called it Arktos Megale. It is mentioned by such poets as Homer, Spenser, Shakespeare, Tennyson and also by Federico Garcia Lorca, in "Song for the Moon". Ancient Finnish poetry also refers to the constellation, and it features in the painting Starry Night Over the Rhône by Vincent van Gogh. It may be mentioned in the biblical book of Job, dated between the 7th and 4th centuries BC, although this is often disputed."
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Post by brobear on Nov 2, 2021 3:55:27 GMT -5
www.donsmaps.com/bear.html The Bear The bear possesses a soul just as the human being does. The Orochi are as steadfastly convinced of this as they are of the idea that there is a girl carrying a pail of water on the moon. No Tungus ever kills this largest and most powerful predator in the Siberian forests without a compelling reason. Yet it is not the bear's strength which fills the Tungus with such awe and respect nor the elemental power of the mighty beast which makes them tremble. There are deeper reasons for their dread of the bear's soul. A bear's facial expression can be extraordinarily human at times. A bear can walk upright on two legs and when skinned bears a gruesome resemblance to a man. Finally, there is an ancient belief that the bear is in communication with the Lord of the Mountains and with the sky, and certainly he has from time immemorial been surrounded by an aura which enjoins caution and respect. Very large numbers of brown bear live in the North Manchurian taiga. There is Ursus arctos, which inhabits the densest forests of central and northern Asia, Eurasian Russia and the coasts of the Sea of Okhotsk. I also saw the massive gray bear, the largest surviving predator on earth, which resembles the grizzly or giant bear of Alaska or Ursus arctos horribilis, the Kodiak bear. This animal has been described as bulky, clumsy and awkward, but sharp, curved claws, immensely powerful masticatory equipment and bunches of neck and shoulder muscle make even the heaviest bear an agile climber and allow him to haul his massive body up trees by the brute force of his arms and legs.
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