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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 6:44:57 GMT -5
The lowest weight for a mature Steppe bear given is 660 pounds ( evidently the normal minimum for a she-bear. The normal maximum given is 2,200 pounds. Probably - and this is pure speculation - the average mature boar Steppe bear would be somewhere between 1,200 and 1,800 pounds. Shooting this in the middle - I'm feel certain that an average weight of 1,500 pounds cannot be far from accurate. About the size of Bart the Bear. *Note: pictured is a painting of a California grizzly ( golden bear ) challenging Arctodus simus. This was perhaps the only member of the genus Ursus and also of the same species ( Ursus arctos ) as the Steppe bear who might have equaled his size.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 21, 2019 7:02:07 GMT -5
What we have here is the battle of the giants, the biggest bears, a dream fight. My match would be the Steppe brown bear (probably the largest bear of the Ursus genus), and Arctotherium Angustidens (the largest of the Tremarctinae subfamily). Like always, the fight has to be at same weight, in this case, both can reach 2200 lbs. the Steppe brown bear has greater girth and should be stronger. I would say the Steppe brown bear wins most times. (Same weight).
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 8:03:42 GMT -5
What we have here is the battle of the giants, the biggest bears, a dream fight. My match would be the Steppe brown bear (probably the largest bear of the Ursus genus), and Arctotherium Angustidens (the largest of the Tremarctinae subfamily). Like always, the fight has to be at same weight, in this case, both can reach 2200 lbs. the Steppe brown bear has greater girth and should be stronger. I would say the Steppe brown bear wins most times. (Same weight). Only thing I disagree with here is weight-parity. Reasoning: I don't wish to be like the big cat fan-boys and down-size the opponent of my favorite. What I'm looking for are "average weights" estimated as accurately as possible. But, I must add: at weight parity I completely agree with your assessment.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 8:12:06 GMT -5
Considering all the conflicting info we have collected, my take ( opinion ) is a bear with a max-weight of about 3,500 pounds ( not common ) and perhaps an average weight of about 2,500 pounds. *Strictly IMO. Therefore, the South American giant has a weight advantage of roughly 1,000 pounds. This was a monster. No grizzly could compete with this giant.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:06:36 GMT -5
According to Taipan: carnivora.net/index.php Arctodus simus: Arctodus (Greek, "bear tooth") — known as the short-faced bear or bulldog bear — is an extinct genus of bear endemic to North America during the Pleistocene ~3.0 Ma.—11,000 years ago, existing for approximately three million years. Arctodus simus may have once been Earth's largest mammalian, terrestrial carnivore. It was the most common of early North American bears, being most abundant in California. It was native to prehistoric North America from about 800,000 years ago, and became extinct about 12,500 years ago. It has been found from as far north as Ikpikpuk River, Alaska to Lowndes County, Mississippi. It is one of the largest bears in the fossil record and was among the largest mammalian land predators of all time. The type specimen came from Potter Creek Cave in Shasta County, California. In a recent study, the mass of six A. simus specimens was estimated, one-third of them weighed about 900 kg (1 short ton), the largest being UVP 015 at 957 kg (2,110 lb), suggesting specimens that big were probably more common than previously thought. evidently this was about average: 900 kilograms is equal to 1,984.16 pounds (avoirdupois)... ( 1 ton ). Arctotherium angustidens: Arctotherium is an extinct genus of South American short-faced bears within Ursidae of the late Pliocene through the end of the Pleistocene. They were endemic to South America living from ~2.0–0.01 Ma, existing for approximately 1.99 million years. Their closest relatives were the North American short-faced bears of genus Arctodus (A. pristinus and A. simus). The closest living relative would be the Spectacled bear (Tremarctos ornatus). A specimen of A. angustidens from Buenos Aires shows an individual estimated, using the humerus, to weight between 983–2,042 kg (2,170–4,500 lb), though the authors consider the upper limit as improbable and say that 1,588 kg (3,500 lb) is more likely, however, using the radious, the mass estimate shrinks to a maximum of 1,108 kg (2,440 lb).
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 21, 2019 10:07:33 GMT -5
I agree with you about the conflicting data we have. But hey, what can we expect from prehistoric animals? We will probably never know the exact weights.
the reason i mention a same weight fight is because a bear with a big weight advantage will win, that is not even debatible. I recon both of those species had 2200 lb specimens, especially Angustidens.
Add: the best data we have (and me and you have probably read most sites already), is the max weights of these animals. The least known info is on average weights you probably noticed.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:14:45 GMT -5
IF ( a big IF ) Taipan is correct, then IMO the European Steppe bear should stand a good 50-50 chance against either of these giant bears - with each being a mature boar of average size. I still hold that pound-for-pound, no bear ( with the possible exception of the cave bear ) was ever the grizzly's equal in overall physical strength. Also, we now know that a grizzly has superior grappling ability over the short-faced bears. *Note: everything could change as new data is produced.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:17:51 GMT -5
I agree with you about the conflicting data we have. But hey, what can we expect from prehistoric animals? We will probably never know the exact weights.
the reason i mention a same weight fight is because a bear with a big weight advantage will win, that is not even debatible. I recon both of those species had 2200 lb specimens, especially Angustidens.
Add: the best data we have (and me and you have probably read most sites already), is the max weights of these animals. The least known info is on average weights you probably noticed.
You are very likely right. We do know that 2200 pounds would agree with all three. Perhaps slightly below average of one and perhaps slightly above average for another; but fair enough for me.... Second thoughts... these weights are likely pretty-near normal max for both Arctodus and the Steppe bear but probably near average for Arctotherium. But, I'm good with it since no numbers are certain.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:37:05 GMT -5
Something all three bears have in common - all are primarily carnivorous. Arctotherium and the Steppe bear were probably both more predator that Arctodus, but all three were also scavengers and kleptoparsites.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:39:52 GMT -5
From left to right:
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:44:12 GMT -5
Arctodus simus
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:49:03 GMT -5
Arctotherium angustidens
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 10:52:41 GMT -5
1750 kilograms is equal to 3,858.09 pounds (avoirdupois) The numbers are "out-dated" but the picture may possibly be correct.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 21, 2019 12:44:30 GMT -5
I agree with you about the conflicting data we have. But hey, what can we expect from prehistoric animals? We will probably never know the exact weights.
the reason i mention a same weight fight is because a bear with a big weight advantage will win, that is not even debatible. I recon both of those species had 2200 lb specimens, especially Angustidens.
Add: the best data we have (and me and you have probably read most sites already), is the max weights of these animals. The least known info is on average weights you probably noticed.
You are very likely right. We do know that 2200 pounds would agree with all three. Perhaps slightly below average of one and perhaps slightly above average for another; but fair enough for me.... Second thoughts... these weights are likely pretty-near normal max for both Arctodus and the Steppe bear but probably near average for Arctotherium. But, I'm good with it since no numbers are certain. After all we have read, yes, it looks to me like Angustidens average weight was anywhere between 2000 and 2500 lbs, that would be a good estimate. That would make this species the heaviest on average in history. Not to mention max weights. So Angustidens would pretty much be invincible at higher weights. If we have weight parity with Priscus than we would have a fair fight. In that case, like i said before, i might just give Priscus the edge because of girth and power.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 13:01:02 GMT -5
Agreed. The Steppe bear is shorter but thicker. Broad with slightly bowed-legs and in-turned feet, like a bulldog. This big Pleistocene grizzly is the better grappler of the three ( according to morphology studies ). I would wager on the Steppe bear. *Note: deciding on the champion of a fight between extinct animals is completely guess-work.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 21, 2019 14:52:36 GMT -5
Well then we agree that at same weights, the Steppe brown bear would mostly win. The heavyweight champion in GENERAL would be the giant Angustidens, thats for sure.
side note here: this just came to my mind! There is one bear that would destroy all these prehistoric bears talked about in this thread! does not matter the weight! URSUS ARCTOS MIDDENDORFFI, the best of the land.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 15:26:34 GMT -5
LOL - I know you're joking. The Kodiak is the best we have today ( IMO ) although the huge predator of seals and walrus is the king of his own turf. This fight is certainly debatable. However, the mightiest bears of all time... I will list them in order, Please give your nickels worth. Top-10. 1 - Arctotherium angustidens. 2 - Arctodus simus and the European Steppe bear. 3 - Agriotherium africanus and the California grizzly. 4 - Kodiak bear and polar bear. 5 - Alaskan peninsula brown bear and Kamchatka brown bear. 6 - Amur brown bear and Hokkaido brown bear. 7 - grizzly. 8 - Carpathian brown bear. 9 - Barren ground grizzly, Gobi bear and Tibetan blue bear. 10 - sloth bear. *Note: those which are evenly matched enough for strong debate, I placed together.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 21, 2019 17:43:44 GMT -5
LOL - I know you're joking. The Kodiak is the best we have today ( IMO ) although the huge predator of seals and walrus is the king of his own turf. This fight is certainly debatable. However, the mightiest bears of all time... I will list them in order, Please give your nickels worth. Top-10. 1 - Arctotherium angustidens. 2 - Arctodus simus and the European Steppe bear. 3 - Agriotherium africanus and the California grizzly. 4 - Kodiak bear and polar bear. 5 - Alaskan peninsula brown bear and Kamchatka brown bear. 6 - Amur brown bear and Hokkaido brown bear. 7 - grizzly. 8 - Carpathian brown bear. 9 - Barren ground grizzly, Gobi bear and Tibetan blue bear. 10 - sloth bear. *Note: those which are evenly matched enough for strong debate, I placed together. Yeah, just a joke, ha ha, i just love my bear. 1-no doubt. 2-no doubt. 3-A. africanus-C.grizzly. I add CAVE BEAR. Ursus spelaeus, and Ursus ingressus. 4-no doubt. 5-no doubt. 6-i add GRIZZLY BEAR. 7-Carpathian brown bear. 8-BLACK BEAR (AMERICAN), barren ground grizzly. 9-Gobi bear and sloth. 10-Ursus arctos arctos.
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Post by brobear on Feb 21, 2019 17:59:29 GMT -5
How is it even possible... scratching my head. I forgot all about the cave bears. = reload. 1 - Arctotherium angustidens. 2 - Arctodus simus and the European Steppe bear. 3 - Agriotherium africanus, California grizzly, Ursus spelaeus, and Ursus ingressus. 4 - Kodiak bear, polar bear and Ursus Deningeri. 5 - Alaskan peninsula brown bear, Kamchatka brown bear and Indarctos. 6 - Amur brown bear, Hokkaido brown bear and the mountain grizzly. 7 - Carpathian brown bear and Florida spectacled bear. 8 - Barren ground grizzly, Gobi bear and Tibetan blue bear. 9 - American black bear and Asiatic black bear. 10 - sloth bear.
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Post by King Kodiak on Feb 21, 2019 18:09:05 GMT -5
You are becoming old Brobear, ha ha ha. i was about to ask you what the hell happened with the cave bears? I see you also added the black bear, which is good.
Anyways, yeah that new list is better, our lists are pretty close.
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