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Post by brobear on Dec 14, 2020 14:18:54 GMT -5
If Agriotherium africanum lived in Africa today, would the lions still rule the open countryside as the apex predator?
A. africanum: 2.5 m ( 8 feet 2 inches ) in length, 165 cm ( 5 feet 5 inches ) in height, 600 kg ( 1,323 pounds ) of weight.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 14, 2020 14:37:56 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Dec 14, 2020 14:50:33 GMT -5
No; we do not. In the prehistoric bear section, I was researching to see if Agriotherium actually lived among lions. And, if not, what other predators did he compete with. This is the "Bear Predation and Face-Off Topics" section. Two different things. We will not discus face-off topics in the "Prehistoric & Extinct Bears" section.  |
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 14, 2020 15:02:34 GMT -5
How good are the grappling abilities of this African short faced bear ? If it is similar to the Arctodus, two lions are probably enough to defeat it in a fight to death. I think it is about the same weight as an average polar bear overall.
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 14, 2020 15:28:18 GMT -5
How good are the grappling abilities of this African short faced bear ? If it is similar to the Arctodus, two lions are probably enough to defeat it in a fight to death. I think it is about the same weight as an average polar bear overall. |
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Post by brobear on Dec 14, 2020 15:31:06 GMT -5
Agriotherium africanum was the size of a very large polar bear. He was a hypercarnivore; a hunter of large animals. But I'm not talking about prey that flopped about like over-sized caterpillars. Hoofed prey. He lived among megafauna. He dealt with other super-predators. He has jaws more powerful than those of the lions or hyenas.
Question #1- would the lions view this bears as prey or competition?
Question #2- would a pride of lions attack this bear?
Question #3- in a dispute over a carcass, who would win the prize?
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 14, 2020 15:46:52 GMT -5
I will just speculate, these are just my opinions:
The bear is just too large to view as prey, he is predator also, not a hoofed animal. I think the lions would view him as competition.
A large pride, i think so. To eliminate competition.
The bear has always been the best expert at carcasses. Hard to say with a pride of lions though. If the lions push far enough they mighy win, numbers always win, these are not little wolves. But the bear might also win sometimes.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 14, 2020 15:51:54 GMT -5
How good are the grappling abilities of this African short faced bear ? If it is similar to the Arctodus, two lions are probably enough to defeat it in a fight to death. I think it is about the same weight as an average polar bear overall. Already thanks for clarifying that. I will take note of this. Anyway how good is the grappling ability of the Agriotherium? |
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 14, 2020 16:00:46 GMT -5
I think not that good, similar to the short faced bear in the limbs. It was more of an intimidator because of its size. And this below is why i favored the cave bear over Agriotherium in the other thread:Several studies of the skeleton, including a comparison with Hemicyon ursinus, a fossil bear widely accepted as a predator, show that Agriotherium did not have the limb strength or speed needed for active hunting, either by ambush or by chasing down prey. It also did not show the long claws and increased forelimb strength typical of mammals that dig for food. These very large bears may have specialized on a combination of grazing, eating fruit and invertebrate food in season, and intimidating predators away from carcasses in order to scavenge meat and bone marrow.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriotherium
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Post by brobear on Dec 14, 2020 16:12:42 GMT -5
Also; quote: Very large size would have been necessary to steal and defend kills in environments dominated by some of the most powerful carnivorous mammals that have ever lived, such as the sabertooth cat Amphimachairodus, with whom it shared territory in both Afro-Eurasia and North America, and the bone-cracking canid Epicyon and the massive feliform sabertooth Barbourofelis, which it lived alongside in Texas, as evidenced by fossil deposits at Coffee Ranch. *This last part implies that Agriotherium was a fighter. |
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Post by King Kodiak on Dec 14, 2020 16:17:53 GMT -5
Exactly yeah, it was more of a fighter than a hunter which we know are two different things. If the animal he was displacing decided to fight (which in most cases it would not had been the case), then Africanum was ready to fight.
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Post by brobear on Dec 14, 2020 17:07:05 GMT -5
A pack of 20 wolves will not attack a big boar grizzly in defense of a carcass. However, ( IMO ) 7 big timber wolves could kill the big bear in an all-out attack. ( less that 7 debatable ). But the wolves choose not to put their fellow pack members at risk.
Would lions react differently?
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 14, 2020 17:10:44 GMT -5
A pack of hyenas leave male lions alone. Therefore, Agriotherium should usually be left alone by lions in my opinion.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 14, 2020 17:16:11 GMT -5
It is unknown how both the Atlas bear and the Agriotherium interacts with the lions.
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Post by brobear on Dec 15, 2020 4:06:13 GMT -5
www.researchgate.net/publication/305661593_Diverse_diets_of_the_Mio-Pliocene_carnivorans_of_Langebaanweg_South_Africa domainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/864/agriotherium-africanum?page=2 Agriotherium africanum - Reply #35 This has led to the hypothesis that Agriotherium may have given rise to the Tremarctos lineage and possibly the other extant ursids. Previous research on Agriotherium has focused largely on estimating its bite force in relation to body mass for the purposes of reconstructing evolutionary anatomical adaptations and hypothetical feeding ecology. For instance, one study concluded that Agriotherium had an absolute bite force higher than that of any other mammalian carnivore and that, even relative to body mass, Agriotherium’s bite force was still formidable. However, the wide range of feeding niches and masticatory adaptations occupied by modern ursids make it difficult to predict Agriotherium’s diet. For example, the giant panda is able to generate and sustain a powerful bite force comparable to Agriotherium in order to exploit bamboo, its primary food source, although some studies have claimed that Agriotherium actively hunted and consumed large vertebrates. Other studies have suggested that the diets of these ursids included a lot of vegetation, while still others have argued that Agriotherium is adapted largely for durophagy. Because of the presence of a true carnassial complex and robust molars fit for durophagy (Figure 1b), the growing consensus seems to be that Agriotherium was a predator-scavenger.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 15, 2020 4:08:52 GMT -5
So the agriotherium is actually the ancestor of the tremarctos.
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Post by brobear on Dec 15, 2020 4:11:54 GMT -5
So the agriotherium is actually the ancestor of the tremarctos. Yes; probably true.  |
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Dec 15, 2020 4:13:49 GMT -5
So the agriotherium is actually the ancestor of the tremarctos. Yes; probably true. Your build a bear thread is beginning to make so sense than before. Don’t get me wrong, it is a good thread but the source you posted does confirm something 😁. |
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Post by brobear on Dec 15, 2020 11:19:38 GMT -5
If Agriotherium africanum lived in modern-day Africa ( disregarding the human equation ) who would then rule as the dominant land-based carnivore becomes highly debatable. ( IMO ) He was the dominant predator during his time in prehistoric Africa ( and everywhere else Agriotherium lived ) and he would be "Lord of his domain" in modern-day Africa as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 16:13:55 GMT -5
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