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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 9, 2020 18:42:08 GMT -5
Useless for a tiger as he would try to stay clear of a bear and use fast swipes. The pulling for the tiger is good for moving carcasses, but basically useless in a head on fight.
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Post by brobear on Jul 9, 2020 19:03:41 GMT -5
I would wager on the bear; but I would not bet too high. Did you read Reply #156?
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Post by brobear on Jul 9, 2020 19:07:54 GMT -5
Quote: So you think that at similar weight, a lion/tiger would defeat a brown bear at a tug-of-war? Quote: The pulling for the tiger is good for moving carcasses, but basically useless in a head on fight. No; you did not read reply #156.... Quote: About Advantage #25 - Pull Strength. This does NOT mean pulling and dragging a heavy load such as the carcass of a large prey animal. All three, lions, tigers, and bears have been witnessed dragging the remains of large herbivores. We have no confirmation on who can drag the heaviest load. In this, the big cats use technique as they are equipped with supple spines and "dog legs". Bears rely completely on brute strength.
But, what I am referring to here is when a big cat has both hind feet planted firmly on the ground and he is pulling using his arms and paws. A bear has greater strength for pushing, but pulling makes use of different muscles. A morphology study was conducted which showed that cats are better developed for pulling with their arms and paws while bears are better developed for pushing. You have probably observed polar bears pushing on ice to break it while hunting seals. A big cat will pull down large herbivores off their feet.
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Post by brobear on Jul 9, 2020 19:14:25 GMT -5
Further explanation: I'm talking about like if you are standing and pulling using with only your arms and hands. Your feet planted firmly on the floor. You reach out, grab the object ( we'll say boat trailor ) and you pull it towards you. Your feet are not moving. The big cat has his claws on a buffalo and pulls him down using his paws and arms. Its this pull strength I'm referring to.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 9, 2020 19:26:18 GMT -5
Could be brobear, am not so sure at pulling at similar weights. You could be right. But am sure that a brown bear with a weight advantage will pull more.
Add: pushing is more usefull in a head on fight than pulling, IMO.
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Post by brobear on Jul 9, 2020 19:39:34 GMT -5
Could be brobear, am not so sure at pulling at similar weights. You could be right. But am sure that a brown bear with a weight advantage will pull more.
Add: pushing is more usefull in a head on fight than pulling, IMO. Over on the old AVA forum, Ursus arctos middendorffi, Peter, tigerluver, Apollo, and several other of their elite "big brains" did some really serious examining of bones and anatomy research and morphology - crap I have no understanding of - and I recall how even they were surprised with some of their results; especially the fact that according to their findings, a big cat can pull, with his arms, with a greater force than a similar-sized brown bear. On the other hand, a big cat cannot compete with a bear when it comes to pushing. It kinda makes sense though, as a cat will latch-onto a large prey animal with his meat-hook claws and pull - been doing this for ( how many million years )?
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 9, 2020 20:02:16 GMT -5
Do you think any tiger/lion can do this brobear? Just try to picture it. The bear here did more pulling than moving as the title says. He flipped the whole bison carcass:
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Post by tom on Jul 9, 2020 20:06:09 GMT -5
Good find Kodiak. It takes immense strength to do what I just saw on that video. The Bear was working from the back end to which would make it even harder IMO. I do not think a single Lion or Tiger could do this nearly as easy if at all.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 9, 2020 20:11:22 GMT -5
Good find Kodiak. It takes immense strength to do what I just saw on that video. The Bear was working from the back end to which would make it even harder IMO. I do not think a single Lion or Tiger could do this nearly as easy if at all. You never seen this video Tom? Its been posted many times. And as for our debate here who can "pull" more, well, like you just said, the bear was working from the back and he flipped the whole carcass, this has to do more with pulling because he had to pull to do that. I dont see a big cat doing this with a huge bovine like that.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 9, 2020 20:18:52 GMT -5
Reply 166. The tiger and lion might be able to drag a heavy carcass but definitely does not have the strength of a male grizzly bear to flip over a bison carcass.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 9, 2020 20:50:25 GMT -5
I understand what brobear is claiming. Tigers/lions claws are designed to grasp and hold onto prey. Bears claws are designed for digging. So tigers/lions claws should be better suited for pulling. But as far as which animal can pull more weight, i have no doubts its the brown bear given all the upper body morphological advantages:
domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/27615/thread
Anyhow and anyways, i would agree to let the big cats have the "pulling" advantage.
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Post by brobear on Jul 10, 2020 1:57:43 GMT -5
Actually; I was going by the findings of the "elite Brainiacs" of the old AVA; several of which can now be found at: wildfact.com/forum/ If you still confer with Peter, maybe he will have some input...
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Post by brobear on Jul 10, 2020 4:37:55 GMT -5
See Reply #76 and #77 on the topic: "Interesting Data involving big cats". I could spend hours filling pages with evidence / proof that all cats are ambush predators, with the lion alone being only partly so. But even the lion is basically an ambush predator and will attempt an ambush-style attack ( from one side or from behind ) even when in a fight out in the open. Outside of the lion; cat dislike and avoid frontal confrontations. A big cat will most often relinquish a carcass to another predator rather than fight to defend it. Just this morning I watched video-after-video of leopard vs hyena scenarios and not once did the leopard actually fight with the hyena. He might attempt the tug-o-war contest or he might hiss and snarl and slap ( bluff ), but the leopard is unwilling to make full-body-contact with his adversary. Big cat fans have for many years now attempted to insult me with the fact that bears are omnivores while cats are full-time predators. To them, this fact should be insulting. However, I accept that which is factual. There are, in fact, a great many attributes of the big cats which surpass those of the bears. I am in denial of none of it. But while any and all wild animal authorities will tell you that cats are, by nature, ambush predators, the fanboys cannot accept it. They go deeply into denial. They grow angry every time I mention the word - ambush. This is yet another advantage of the bear in a face-off; the willingness to fight face-to-face.
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Post by brobear on Jul 10, 2020 4:40:28 GMT -5
Ok so here is Brobear's updated list (which we all agree with), i added #23, power. L= Lion. / T= Tiger. / B= Brown Bear.
1- Numbers - ( the greatest advantage of all ) - L. 2- Experience - L / B / T. 3- Speed and Quick Reflexes - L&T - B. ( slightly ). 4- Agility - L&T - B. 5- Jaws and Teeth - T&L / B. 6- Claws - B / T&L. 7- Size and Weight - B / T / L. 8- Overall Strength and Leverage - B / T / L. 9- Grappling Ability - B / L&T. 10- Intelligence - B / L&T. 11- Bipedal Ability - B / L&T. 12- Aggressiveness - L / B / T. 13- Stamina - B / L / T. 14- Endurance to Pain and Injury - B / L&T. 15- Paw-Strike - B / L&T. 16- Durability / Girth - B / L&T. 17- "Bulldog Build" - B. 18- Plantigrade Posture - B. 29- Stability - B / L&T. 20- Tiny Eyes- B / L&T. 21- Shoulder Hump ( reinforces upper-body strength ) - B. 22- Power - L&T / B. 23- Push Strength - B / L&T. 24- Pull Strength - L&T / B. 25- Willingness to Fight Face-to-Face - B&L / T.
Omnivore Kleptoparasite vs ambush predator.
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Post by King Kodiak on Jul 10, 2020 6:31:06 GMT -5
Yeah, this one is pretty obvious brobear. Damn, the bear has 18 out of 26 advantages. No wonder the cats lose in a face-off.
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Post by OldGreenGrolar on Jul 10, 2020 7:52:45 GMT -5
Regarding fighting experience, I think it is a toss up between lions and brown bear in general.
Barren ground grizzlies charging much larger and stronger polar bears might be the most aggressive of all.
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Post by brobear on Jul 10, 2020 15:08:45 GMT -5
Regarding fighting experience, I think it is a toss up between lions and brown bear in general. Barren ground grizzlies charging much larger and stronger polar bears might be the most aggressive of all. With some individual brown bears, this is true. Some boss bears fight quite a bit, as can be seen in their battle scars. But lions fight more often to the death. A couple of reasons for this. When a bear fights, he fights either to punish an adversary, or to stop an adversary from being a possible threat. In either case, the brown bear has no concern whatsoever of whether his adversary is dead or alive. Reason number #2, brown bears are very durable. He can withstand punishment that would cripple or kill a lion. In other words, he doesn't die so easily. However, the average male lion ( IMO ) fights more often than the average boar brown bear.
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Post by tom on Jul 10, 2020 16:11:03 GMT -5
Regarding fighting experience, I think it is a toss up between lions and brown bear in general. Barren ground grizzlies charging much larger and stronger polar bears might be the most aggressive of all. With some individual brown bears, this is true. Some boss bears fight quite a bit, as can be seen in their battle scars. But lions fight more often to the death. A couple of reasons for this. When a bear fights, he fights either to punish an adversary, or to stop an adversary from being a possible threat. In either case, the brown bear has no concern whatsoever of whether his adversary is dead or alive. Reason number #2, brown bears are very durable. He can withstand punishment that would cripple or kill a lion. In other words, he doesn't die so easily. However, the average male lion ( IMO ) fights more often than the average boar brown bear. I would have to agree here. Essentially a Lion is groomed from a cub to fight. A male Lion fights his whole life to protect his pride or gain a new one, till he one day he looses a fight or is driven from the pride. This not to say that Brown Bears don't fight that often as they most certainly can and do. However a male Brown Bear is not employed to protect his offspring like the Lion so most of his fighting revolves around breeding rights or feeding rights. Fact is the female Brown Bear may fight as often and maybe even more to protect her cubs.
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Post by brobear on Aug 15, 2020 10:24:52 GMT -5
About Advantage #25 - Pull Strength. This does NOT mean pulling and dragging a heavy load such as the carcass of a large prey animal. All three, lions, tigers, and bears have been witnessed dragging the remains of large herbivores. We have no confirmation on who can drag the heaviest load. In this, the big cats use technique as they are equipped with supple spines and "dog legs". Bears rely completely on brute strength. But, what I am referring to here is when a big cat has both hind feet planted firmly on the ground and he is pulling using his arms and paws. A bear has greater strength for pushing, but pulling makes use of different muscles. A morphology study was conducted which showed that cats are better developed for pulling with their arms and paws while bears are better developed for pushing. You have probably observed polar bears pushing on ice to break it while hunting seals. A big cat will pull down large herbivores off their feet. From tiger vs Grizzly page#2 - Reply #26 5c: It also is a fact a tiger, at equal or near-equal size, is able to pull (biceps) harder than a brown bear. This means a tiger, confronting the bear in an upright position, is able to hold a bear better than the other way round. Bears, on the other hand, are better pushers (triceps and shoulders) and more prolific hitters. All this means an average male tiger, in spite of the difference in weight, can be expected to confront a larger average male brown bear on equal or near-equal terms. As his way of fighting is energy-absorbing, tigers need and seek breaks. It is, however, doubtful if a tiger, as Pikunov suggested, would expend himself in this way, as the information available (on fights with other animals) suggest tigers often are involved in prolonged struggles.
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Post by brobear on Sept 3, 2020 4:44:36 GMT -5
Quote from above post: All this means an average male tiger, in spite of the difference in weight, can be expected to confront a larger average male brown bear on equal or near-equal terms. As his way of fighting is energy-absorbing, tigers need and seek breaks. It is, however, doubtful if a tiger, as Pikunov suggested, would expend himself in this way, as the information available (on fights with other animals) suggest tigers often are involved in prolonged struggles. *It was reported that Dale fought with the female brown bear he had ambushed for 20-full minutes. The bear was very likely seriously injured in the initial ambush by both teeth and claws. Especially on the back of the neck where a tiger always grabs the bear immediately on contact with his teeth. The tiger was therefore very likely able to take brief breaks during the struggle. 20 minutes may very well be pushing the limit as to just how long a tiger can last in a fight before total exhaustion sets in. In the incident when a prime male tiger fought a female sloth bear face-to-face, the smaller bear was able to defend herself until the tiger was too exhausted to continue the fight. The length of time in this fight cannot be accurately determined as there appears to be breaks within the filming.
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