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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:30:45 GMT -5
Continued....
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:35:08 GMT -5
About above post..... Consider animals A and B: A) Has a higher fiber length/in lever arm ratio B) Has a lower fiber length/in lever arm ratio
If both of them move the joint with the same angular acceleration, the muscles of animal A will be contracting relatively more slowly, thus producing a greater force relative to cross section area. For this reason actual differences in force production are much more complicated than the simple estimations. This is in addition to the strong decline in force production over a range of movements associated with lower fiber length/in lever arm ratios noted in a previous post.
Reduced force at higher speeds (especially for lower fiber length/lever arm ratios) may set limits on ultimate speed, despite higher acceleration at lower speeds resulting from high force. The high resistance forces associated with running likely mean force is more important, but with lower resistance-such as striking with the limbs-higher fiber length/in lever arm may be more important. Haven't read the Megatherium article, but that is likely something important to consider (and would be a good starting point to dig into it).
This post was hurried and done sloppily, especially with the distinction of torque & angular acceleration + speed w/ force & acceleration + speed. Out lever arm (limb length) is a factor for the latter, not the former. Hopefully I didn't really fumble that throughout this post. I'll happily clarify if something isn't clear or is messed up.
Muscle pennation (discussed in the chimp, cheetah, and muscle architecture articles) is also an important factor. However, I am done for now.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:38:26 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ .... Carnivorous and Omnivores Animals, Excluding Felids .... Bears Canines and Claws .... post #26 by Tigerluver. Tigerluver explains how a grizzly can take very rapid bite-after-bite of a large prey animal or adversary. Each bite removes a chunk of the victim. It is a bloody gory method of killing.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:40:59 GMT -5
By Ursus arctos middendorffi ( the poster )... June 20th, 2011.... Animals vs Animals - Yuku.
Finally, the requested conclusion.
For ease of comparison I will assume in this conclusion that they are of roughly equal size, and that both animals are from midsummer (rather than using a very fat bear from fall, for example).
A brown bear would be much better able to gain dominant positions and exhaust the other animal over time. This is the general strategy they do when fighting each other (with the end result typically being a tired bear backing down or outright fleeing) as well as often when killing other animals; if unable to cause serious injuries they seem to simply exhaust it through grappling to the point it is no longer able to defend itself, and then slowly kill it. This can be seen in a few clips on youtube, such as "grizzly eats moose alive", "brown bear predation of wild boar (Russia)", and it looks like this was the case in "bear killing bear", a slideshow of a bear killing another one of similar size-note that it moved itself to the back of the other animal where it couldn't effectively fight back. Similar to what you see in this video.
In these cases a bear was able to keep itself relatively free of injuries while exhausting the other animal to the point that it could be safely (albeit ineffectively) killed through their great wrestling/grappling ability.
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Post by brobear on Mar 20, 2017 5:51:23 GMT -5
wildfact.com/forum/ - Terrestrial Wild Animals - Wild Cats - Big Cat Strength - Post #37 by Pckts. A very good post actually. What amazes me is that unintentionally, Pckts is describing perfectly the fighting methods of a grizzly. Quote: You can always tell who's a wrestler from who's just a brutally strong guy, a wrestler will first have much better technique, they'll keep your shoulders pressed to the mat and they'll control top position, this of course is the goal for any fighter but they are able to do this while maintaining a top position that feels like an anvil is on your chest. Trying to move a good, strong wrestler is like trying to budge a piece of concrete. What I'm getting at is that it's not only the fact that they spend all day trying to move things that don't want to be moved (other wrestlers) and what that does is teach the wrestler different techniques for different positions while gaining great stabilizer strength and grip strength as well. *Note: Compare with above post by Ursus.
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Post by brobear on Mar 24, 2017 12:20:20 GMT -5
Grizzly.
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Post by brobear on Mar 14, 2018 6:58:57 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/1199/bear-capable-delivering-powerful-force Some basic information : EAR ATTACKS (Copyright © 2001 by Steven P. French, M.D.) The following is the text for the 43rd chapter in the Fourth Edition of Wilderness Medicine, edited by Paul S. Auerbach, published by Mosby in 2001 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Auerbach BEAR-INDUCED INJURIES Bear-inflicted injuries range from minor, treated on an outpatient basis, to complex, requiring hospitalization and surgery, typically resulting in significant cosmetic and functional disability. In this regard, bear attacks are similar to most other animal attacks, particularly those inflicted by large animals. The character of such injuries is determined in part by the three main sources: teeth, claws, and paws. The teeth of bears, especially the canines, are large and sturdy. Although the teeth are not particularly sharp, the power of the jaw muscles allows the teeth to penetrate deep into soft tissues and to fracture facial bones and bones of the hand and forearm with ease. The trauma characteristically results from punctures, with shearing, tearing, and crushing forces (Figure 43-20). The claws are another important source of trauma. Although the claws on the front pads can be as long as human fingers, they are not particularly sharp on grizzlies and polar bears. The bear’s shoulders, however, provide the force and speed that allows claws to cause significant soft tissue damage in a scraping maneuver that results in deep, parallel gashes. Because black bear claws are sharper and more curved, the cuts tend to have sharper, less ragged edges. The bear paw is capable of delivering a powerful force, resulting in significant blunt trauma, particularly to the head and neck, ribcage, and abdominal cavity, especially solid organ rupture. Therefore victims of bear attacks should be evaluated for occult blunt trauma. ORIGINAL PAPER Large carnivore attacks on hominins during the Pleistocene:a forensic approach with a Neanderthal example Edgard Camarós VGRF = vertical ground reaction force. *Brown bears share some similarities with large cursorial species, their locomotor kinetics have unique characteristics. *Vertical ground reaction forces is significantly more pronounced in the hindlimb,however,VGRF in forelim is still relatively high. "The high medial forces (produced from a lateral push by the animal) could be caused by frontal plane movement of the carpus and elbow by bears" It forced me to focused on the carpus of brown bears. Sylvie McKenzie said she was driving along a highway a few kilometres west of Jasper when she noticed two bears running along the road ahead.She said she slowed down to let the bears cross the road, but only the female bear did so. The second bear – a male – simply stopped and stared at her. McKenzie said she then started driving, putting her car between the two bears. Sylvie McKenzie Asked whether she has any advice for drivers caught in the same situation in the future, McKenzie had simple advice: 'Stop, turn around, wait for a few minutes and go back.' (CBC) "The male didn't like it at all, so he decided to take his feet, charge and hit my car with his two front paws," she said. "[He] just came and pounced on my car with full force and full speed." McKenzie said the car rocked violently when the bear hit it, giving her a close-up view of the bear’s face. "I could see his teeth, the drool on his face. I tried to speed up and put my foot on the gas pedal to get away as fast as I could." Later, she found grizzly prints all over the side of her car, along with two big dents and several scratches. It seem that carpal bone have a high resistance to mechanical deformation. Grizzly bear front paws are surprisingly heavy,maybe due to massive carpal bones? This is the most accurate description of the striking ability IMHO: "...The attack of a Bear is usually sudden and rapid, and he either tries to deal his opponent a blow with a forepaw by executing a rapid and violent movement to the side ,or he quickly trots up to his enemy ,suddenly lift himself on his hind-legs in the immediate proximity of his foe whom he tries to knock down with a violent stroke of the front-paw,or else he deals him a sound blow and gives him a quick bite..."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 5:36:06 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on people that say bears don't use paw swipes when fighting? When debating bear vs big cat fight online alot of big cats supporters like to claim that bears seldom use paw swipes while in battle? Tell me what you guys think about this.
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Post by brobear on Oct 8, 2018 5:39:45 GMT -5
The Bear Almanac by Gary Brown.
In an attack, bears charge on all four legs, some in great, leaping bounds. They do not stand bipedal in an attack, unless in a final, close-quarters "reaching" action. They do not "bear hug" but strike, claw, and bite. The most effective method of attack is with a crushing blow of a forepaw; they have incredible forepaw speed; a single strike is so powerful that it can kill an adult elk, caribou, or moose. The bear "... strikes around with its paws," according to Frederick Drimmer in 'The Animal Kingdom. "The terrific strength of its weighty arms drives the claws deep into the body of its victims." "When hunting large game, bears may stalk catlike, then run the prey down with a sudden spurt and kill it with blows of the forepaws and bites through the neck," describes Paul Shepard and Barry Sanders in 'The sacred Paw'. Scientists, victims, and other observers describe various actions of the species: Brown bear: uses speed to run down prey; charges in great bounds ( while uttering a deep roar ); rears up in fight to grasp head or neck with teeth; swings powerful forepaws, with enormous body strength behind them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 5:45:01 GMT -5
The Bear Almanac by Gary Brown. In an attack, bears charge on all four legs, some in great, leaping bounds. They do not stand bipedal in an attack, unless in a final, close-quarters "reaching" action. They do not "bear hug" but strike, claw, and bite. The most effective method of attack is with a crushing blow of a forepaw; they have incredible forepaw speed; a single strike is so powerful that it can kill an adult elk, caribou, or moose. The bear "... strikes around with its paws," according to Frederick Drimmer in 'The Animal Kingdom. "The terrific strength of its weighty arms drives the claws deep into the body of its victims." "When hunting large game, bears may stalk catlike, then run the prey down with a sudden spurt and kill it with blows of the forepaws and bites through the neck," describes Paul Shepard and Barry Sanders in 'The sacred Paw'. Scientists, victims, and other observers describe various actions of the species: Brown bear: uses speed to run down prey; charges in great bounds ( while uttering a deep roar ); rears up in fight to grasp head or neck with teeth; swings powerful forepaws, with enormous body strength behind them. This sounds about right. Great find as always. Big cat fans told me that I was wrong and told me that bears don't use paw swipes in battle. Now I know that this is not true because of the text from the bear almanac. Great find brobear. You really do amazed me. Let me ask you think who paws do you think are more effective between a tiger and a brown bear? On wikipedia it says that a tiger can crush a near skull with a paw swipe but Im not sure though.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 8, 2018 6:02:42 GMT -5
When any big cat fanboy tells you that, you can just show him this. Here is “The Telegraph” from the UK. Grizzly bear decapitates wolf with a single swipe. When a four-year old grizzly bear was put in the same five-acre enclosure as four grey wolves, each about the size of a large alsatian, at the Grouse Mountain Refuge for Endangered Wildlife in Vancouver, it was supposed to "provide wildlife with the most natural setting possible". Rather too natural for the dozen or so tourists who watched in horror when the alpha-male wolf went nose-to-nose with the bear over a cow bone. With a single swipe of its paw the 500lb bear took the wolf's head off. In the wild the two species seldom meet. The three remaining wolves are now in a separate enclosure. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/canada/1490932/Bear-kills-wolf-in-grizzly-attack.html
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 8, 2018 6:09:08 GMT -5
Or you can show them this here, grizzly throwing some hard swipes. If this is not swiping, i dont know what is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 6:10:44 GMT -5
Or you can show them this here, grizzly throwing some hard swipes. If this is not swiping, i dont know what is. Great find Kodiak. No one can stop the bear team now.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 8, 2018 6:13:19 GMT -5
Hahahah, much less now that we have our leader here....Brobear. This guy is like a bear encyclopedia.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 6:22:13 GMT -5
Hahahah, much less now that we have our leader here....Brobear. This guy is like a bear encyclopedia. I agree brobear is very knowledgeable but so is Tom and Polar. We all are like a big bear family.
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Post by brobear on Oct 8, 2018 6:24:51 GMT -5
The Grizzly by Enos A. Mills.
The grizzly is exceptionally expert and agile with his paws. With either fore paw he can strike like a sledge-hammer or lift a heavy weight. He boxes or strikes with lightning-like rapidity. Most grizzlies are right-handed; that is, the right fore paw is most used. If a small object is to be touched or moved, he will daintily use but one claw. The black bear would use the entire paw. Note: I have seldom watched a grizzly vs grizzly fight where paw-swipes were not used. A grizzly's skull and neck are heavy-built to absorb the powerful blows.
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Post by brobear on Oct 8, 2018 6:27:40 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/11...rful-force The bear paw is capable of delivering a powerful force, resulting in significant blunt trauma, particularly to the head and neck, ribcage, and abdominal cavity, especially solid organ rupture. Therefore victims of bear attacks should be evaluated for occult blunt trauma.
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Post by brobear on Oct 8, 2018 6:30:55 GMT -5
Notorious Grizzly Bear by W.P. Hubbard - 1960 - Blaming the Killer.
Recorded stories are told by both Indian and white men of watching a grizzly follow a buffalo herd and eventually seeing it pull down an aged or maimed animal in the drag of the herd. This was a known practice of wolves. Due to these wolf killings, grizzlies were blamed to an exaggerated extent for killing trail-herd cattle in the same way. It is now commonly known that most of such killings were done by wolves, but the grizzly was blamed. ....The grizzlies did not strike at their victims like a cat, as they have often been described as doing. They cuffed, clubbed, mauled, bit, clawed, ripped, and smashed. When they cuffed domestic sheep and other small animals, they usually crushed the victim's skull or sides, sometimes ripping them open with their claws in the process. Often they killed by hooking their claws into the neck, belly, or ribs, while knocking a "woolie" out of their way. Sometimes they tossed it into the air while doing so. On large game, they killed by tearing their prey's throat with claws and teeth, or by biting or breaking the neck, or caving in the skull or ribs with club-like blows of their powerful paws. At the same time, they inflicted deep gashes upon the victim's body with their claws - or they just clawed and bit until their prey bled to death.
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Post by King Kodiak on Oct 8, 2018 6:34:29 GMT -5
We already discussed this in the “fighting techniques” thread, I believe Grizzlies use swipes mostly when fighting prey items or other animals. When a grizzly fights other grizzlies, they rather like to wrestle and hug around, that is what i see.
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Post by brobear on Oct 8, 2018 6:36:42 GMT -5
shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/653/brown-bear-predator Bears typically kill using brute force and do not seem to exhibit any stereotyped killing postures or behaviours as seen in canids and felids (R. Boertje, pers. comm.; J. Hechtel, pers. comm.). Polar bears and brown bears have been observed to attack their prey both with bites and crushing forepaw slaps, apparently to whatever region of the prey’s body is accessible (Murie, 1985; Boertje et al., 1988; Case & Stevenson, 1991; M. Ramsay, pers. comm; J. Hechtel, pers. comm.). Sacco, T. and Van Valkenburgh, B. (2004), Ecomorphological indicators of feeding behaviour in the bears (Carnivora: Ursidae). Journal of Zoology, 263: 41–54.
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